West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[IUPHawks24]

I did not take it as a shot at the program. I was just defending the style of play, which relies on teamwork, strong fundamentals, unselfish play, tremendous effort, and being willing to play just 15 to 25 minutes a game. We want the best player possible as long as they buy into this philosophy.

The success of Gannon, Bluefield State, Coker, wlu and nova se supports this assertion.
I believe it is superior to many other styles because it can defeat teams with better 1 on 1 players, mainly by causing extreme fatigue in the opponent. Fatigue results in bad shots, turnovers, and reduced rebounding stats and lower points per possession. Fatigue makes cowards of us all.

The “style” focuses on winning and maximizing the possession battle through offensive rebounds and turnover margin.

If you reduce it to its simplest form, that’s how it can be summarized. It’s incredibly smart, and it’s amplified by having a resource advantage- which make no mistake about it- Gannon, West Liberty and Nova Southeastern certainly do.

It will be fascinating to see if Howlett is successful at
IU-Indy, in a job that from what I’ve read is not perceived as a top one in the Horizon League- and where resources are equal (scholarship wise). I think he’s an excellent coach, so I‘m excited to see what he can do.

[Columbuseer]

Like others, I am anxious to see if the wlu style can work at D1. Indy finished 9th of 11 teams in the horizon league, even though they were an improved team. He will likely need a pass on this season, due to the very late nature of his hiring. 11 players had hit the portal and some have already gone elsewhere.

Crutchfield was asked recently if he thought the style would work at d1. His reply was yes, 100%, if one has d1 level players. He said that nova scrimmaged Dusty May's final 4 Florida atlantic team and Nova turned them over.

[EyeoftheHawk]

Like others, I am anxious to see if the wlu style can work at D1. Indy finished 9th of 11 teams in the horizon league, even though they were an improved team. He will likely need a pass on this season, due to the very late nature of his hiring. 11 players had hit the portal and some have already gone elsewhere.

Crutchfield was asked recently if he thought the style would work at d1. His reply was yes, 100%, if one has d1 level players. He said that nova scrimmaged Dusty May's final 4 Florida atlantic team and Nova turned them over.

Not often do I post in this thread but it has been an interesting conversation. Regarding the system working at D1, I don’t think it would work or you’d see others doing it. It’s just a different playing field than D2, and I suspect Ben is going to find that out. We’ll see now that he has the opportunity. I’m curious.

From an outside perspective, I think WLU needs winning a lot and getting into the Elite 8 more than it does even winning one national championship. If it’s a mediocre program that maybe wins a national title once it doesn’t do much to attract the types of players needed or generate sustained interest in the program. The geographic challenges are there. Take a great basketball program out of the equation and it gets a lot tougher. I don’t think WLU will win a national championship, but I also don’t think it’s necessary in order to sustain what they have. If you stay in the conversation then “Next year is our year” always applies.

For me, I’d rather have a program that wins a national championship as opposed to just getting into the tournament a bunch. IUP had two chances and came up short and another Final Four appearance. As IUP24 pointed out, they may never get there again. I think we’re going to see more teams win it that we’ve barely heard of before. Opportunities don’t have to be earned over the long haul anymore. Teams can build a championship team over a few months.

[Topper_Hopper]

I think we’re going to see more teams win it that we’ve barely heard of before. Opportunities don’t have to be earned over the long haul anymore. Teams can build a championship team over a few months.

I think the opposite will be true -- established D2 programs (and big schools) will benefit most from transfer leniency (and potentially NIL). The decent programs that are barely heard of at the national level (Millersville, as an example) have had their chance of winning a national championship reduced to effectively zero.

[Columbuseer]

There are several possible reasons why it has never before been adopted in D1:
1. As others have said, coaches are not convinced that it will work.
2, there is no book, course or formal documentation on the system. What coach wants to implement a system that they don't fully understand? Even the practices are unique.
3. Coaches generally use systems that have been successful for them, such as winning 60-70% over a 10 year span. Why take the risk of failing and losing a good job?
4. Coaches are concerned they will not be able to recruit enough high-level d1 players.

I will follow iu indy with great interest the next couple of years.

[EyeoftheHawk]

I think the opposite will be true -- established D2 programs (and big schools) will benefit most from transfer leniency (and potentially NIL). The decent programs that are barely heard of at the national level (Millersville, as an example) have had their chance of winning a national championship reduced to effectively zero.

I prefer your position on this, believe me. I’m just a bit more pessimistic about it.

[IUP24]

I think the opposite will be true -- established D2 programs (and big schools) will benefit most from transfer leniency (and potentially NIL). The decent programs that are barely heard of at the national level (Millersville, as an example) have had their chance of winning a national championship reduced to effectively zero.

I'd love for that to be true, but I just don't necessarily think it is. Not even remotely close.

You can build a roster set up for one year to win a national championship in 3-6 weeks now. All it takes. The right coach at the right time, being able to attract the right mix of players. Boom. Mission accomplished. I know winning isn't that simple, but now, it really is. There's uniqueness to both of the programs we root for. West Liberty's niche is the system. IUP's was the culture and players remaining part of the "Hawk Family." The latter is not relevant anymore, as we've seen in the results. The former has more staying power, but I do believe over the long haul many are devaluing what players value now.

I get that guys want to win if they are competitors. But I firmly believe their mission is, first and foremost, individual in nature. They want to climb the ladder during their 4 (or 7) year college career.

The reality is that there are fewer spots at the D1 level now than ever before for high school players due to the manner in which the portal works. As EyeOfTheHawk pointed out, we are ripe for random teams to come out of nowhere to win it all. Who is to say that Millersville couldn't do it? They are a decent program. And if they had even resources come through on a given year to put the best team on the floor that money can buy at the D2 level, they'll be more suited to win.

Gannon was terrible. They turned it around in one offseason. Different style of play, sure. But they managed to bring in elite talent that wasn't there before. The ones who are going to win championships at this level are the programs with a young coach with eyes on elevating to the higher level quickly. He will utilize the right recruiting pitch to land elite talent. "I'll help you, and you're going to help me. We will both get out of here together." That's what this is now at this level.

[Chuck Norris]

Not often do I post in this thread but it has been an interesting conversation. Regarding the system working at D1, I don’t think it would work or you’d see others doing it. It’s just a different playing field than D2, and I suspect Ben is going to find that out. We’ll see now that he has the opportunity. I’m curious.

From an outside perspective, I think WLU needs winning a lot and getting into the Elite 8 more than it does even winning one national championship. If it’s a mediocre program that maybe wins a national title once it doesn’t do much to attract the types of players needed or generate sustained interest in the program. The geographic challenges are there. Take a great basketball program out of the equation and it gets a lot tougher. I don’t think WLU will win a national championship, but I also don’t think it’s necessary in order to sustain what they have. If you stay in the conversation then “Next year is our year” always applies.

For me, I’d rather have a program that wins a national championship as opposed to just getting into the tournament a bunch. IUP had two chances and came up short and another Final Four appearance. As IUP24 pointed out, they may never get there again. I think we’re going to see more teams win it that we’ve barely heard of before. Opportunities don’t have to be earned over the long haul anymore. Teams can build a championship team over a few months.

I guess I just can’t get on board with the idea that WL (or IUP for that matter) will never win a national championship. Never is a long time. And it somewhat implies they’ve never really been close when I feel like they’ve been extremely close a number of times even when they didn’t reach the championship game. Look at the games that ended their season over the last 15 years. There are a few outliers like the game against Sleva’s Ship team, but mostly they’re getting bounced in razor close games or to superhuman performances (the BYU Hawaii kid way back when). We forget because it was a while ago, but their first appearance in the NC game was a game they absolutely could’ve won. If they finish that game, this conversation isn’t happening. If IUP doesn’t play essentially a perfect game against them in 2015 I have no doubt WL winds up playing Florida Southern for the title. And they were probably better equipped to beat that team than IUP was. Heck, they had Dominguez Hills dead to rights this year and that team went on to come within an eyelash of winning it all.

And yeah we’re in a new world of college athletics but it seems to me that their system is pretty tailor made for it. Look how quickly it turns programs completely around. To say they’ll never bring in the right talent and get the breaks that always seem to go against them is a bridge too far for me.

Also I’m a Pitt fan. I’ll never again take consistent high level winning for granted. Was their lack of success in the tournament under Howland-Dixon frustrating, on the verge of maddening? Heck yeah. Would I gladly take it over the mess of the last decade. Also, heck yeah.

[boatcapt]

I think you took this as a shot at your program. It was never intended to be that. I just think you’re too married to a system. You are largely devaluing what the modern day athlete values at this current juncture.

Are there exceptions to that? Sure.

Have good D2 programs gotten those guys? Absolutely.

Do enough of those elite players exist who are willing to play a style predicated on not utilizing individual talents, which may impact their future climb, and all go to the same place at the same time? It hasn’t happened yet anywhere other than the school with the resources to make It work.

Again, just be open to a differing perspective. Change is hard, but it can be good. I am not trying to argue negatively about West Liberty basketball. Other human beings coach up tempo styles that differ some that have no connection to West Liberty that may offer their program something different that may interest those making the hire. That’s really all I’m trying to say.

And change simply for the sake of change is also hard...With no gurantee of success. WLU has done the change for the sake of change in the type of players they have brought into the program. Remember, WLU during most of Crutch's tenure did not bring in gifted athletes who could "win" vs their opposite number one on one, and we did quite well as I recall. We unilaterally (change for the sake of change) decided to change the athletes we recruited, I would say, by and large, we have seen similar results between the two types of athlete groups.

I would point out that WLU's success over time has lead us to perceive our "usual" success (Elite 8??) as a bad year. It is NOT and EVERY program in the Atlantic Region and all but probably ONE (maybe two??) nationally right now would trade places with us in a heart beat. There always seems to be a push by fans of other programs and by self appointed basketball experts to bring WLU back into the fold of what they consider a "normal" style of play. I've learned over the years that there are two ways to achieve success...you can either work harder than the other guy OR you can pull the other guy down to your level. I would say those that advocate for ditching the WLU Style fall into the latter category.

[IUP24]

I would point out that WLU's success over time has lead us to perceive our "usual" success (Elite 8??) as a bad year. It is NOT and EVERY program in the Atlantic Region and all but probably ONE (maybe two??) nationally right now would trade places with us in a heart beat. There always seems to be a push by fans of other programs and by self appointed basketball experts to bring WLU back into the fold of what they consider a "normal" style of play. I've learned over the years that there are two ways to achieve success...you can either work harder than the other guy OR you can pull the other guy down to your level. I would say those that advocate for ditching the WLU Style fall into the latter category.

I'm not suggesting a radical shift in how they play basketball. I am suggesting they evaluate how to get more elite talent from a quantity conversation, which would ultimately increase their chances of winning a national title. I am also suggesting that taking that approach may require some adaptation or evolution of how they've grown accustomed to playing, coaching, and recruiting.

I firmly believe that the modern-day college athlete is focused on climbing rungs of the different levels, and not necessarily just winning basketball games. Not saying that the latter isn't a factor, and that there are not exceptions to the cultural norm now, but my personal belief is that you are limiting yourself from a quantity conversation related to elite talent by not adapting the system to some degree.

These discussions are not about proving any methodology is right. It's about finding ways to evolve and win the last game. That's really all that matters. If all the Elite Eight trips never amount to anything for them, then did it all really matter? I recognize you can't take away the success over the long haul, but I would argue that the real answer to that question is, "no."

[Columbuseer]

"...the modern-day college athlete is focused on climbing rungs of the different levels, and not necessarily just winning basketball games..."

By definition, this type of player ( who is not 100% focused on winning) is not a fit for the wlu style. On occasion, some players have starting playing for their stats and it did not end well. Coach Howlett has mentioned that several times post-game.

But I do agree that great talents at d2 today may not stay 4 years. With the d1 emphasis on the xfer portal, more players are going d2 when previously d1 would have signed them. However, imho wlu prepares players better for a euro pro career than many d1 schools.
Unfortunately, players will think short term and pursue the NIL in a couple of years.

[IUP24]

"...the modern-day college athlete is focused on climbing rungs of the different levels, and not necessarily just winning basketball games..."

By definition, this type of player ( who is not 100% focused on winning) is not a fit for the wlu style. On occasion, some players have starting playing for their stats and it did not end well. Coach Howlett has mentioned that several times post-game.

But I do agree that great talents at d2 today may not stay 4 years. With the d1 emphasis on the xfer portal, more players are going d2 when previously d1 would have signed them. However, imho wlu prepares players better for a euro pro career than many d1 schools.
Unfortunately, players will think short term and pursue the NIL in a couple of years.

It's completely fair for you to say that. I don't disagree whatsover.

But it's also completely fair for me to say that approach limits access to elite players who could in fact put you over the hump.

Neither of us are incorrect in what we are saying.

[Columbuseer]

It's completely fair for you to say that. I don't disagree whatsover.

But it's also completely fair for me to say that approach limits access to elite players who could in fact put you over the hump.

Neither of us are incorrect in what we are saying.

I agree with you that it limits access to elite players who are not sufficiently unselfish or fundamentally sound. I just think that wlu knowingly accepts that reality.
I recall a juco all American who came to the Hilltop. He came highly recommended by a respected coach but was not able to play in open gym.

What an offensive talent! No one could guard him. Break your ankle moves, great handles, finish at the rim, and 40+ % from three. Human highlight reel. Extrapolated to 40 minutes of play, he would have averaged 47 pts a game. But he could not learn to pass, rebound, or play defense in the press. Other teams were scoring easy goals because he was out of position. Open teammates did not get the pass for the easy shot. Wlu gave him every chance, even starting him once. It was hopeless and his minutes declined.
Shortly into the 2nd semester he was gone

My point is wlu has tried the elite athlete, thinking they can turn them into a complete player. Just have not had much success. I think a match exists out there that meets your requirements and is a good fit.
but I think we will have to expand our recruiting footprint, which requires $$$.

[Topper_Hopper]

I prefer your position on this, believe me. I’m just a bit more pessimistic about it.

I think the team from California that lost to Nova in this year's championship game is the best example of a relatively unknown team popping up on the national scene. I don't know if they were built through the Portal. Aside from that, it's been a lot of well known D2 programs in the title game for the past 5 years.

That could change, but I think we'll see more of the same.

[EyeoftheHawk]

I guess I just can’t get on board with the idea that WL (or IUP for that matter) will never win a national championship. Never is a long time. And it somewhat implies they’ve never really been close when I feel like they’ve been extremely close a number of times even when they didn’t reach the championship game.

My opinion is primarily based on where the puck is going, not where it was. If we weren’t into this new world of NIL I would have the opinion that WL or maybe even IUP could eventually win a national championship. I don’t like it, but it’s the world of collegiate sports we’re living in now. Yes, the pendulum could swing back the other way and change the equation again, so I’d take the “never” as more tongue in cheek.