West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[IUP24]

I didn't say transferring wasn't here. What I'm saying is that there is a policy and process to it and in that process, a former coach reaching out to his former players before they have entered the portal is a violation. Just because coaches do it and get away with it and/or people dismiss it as no big deal, doesn't make it not a violation

Nearly 100% of all transfers today can be described as shady at best. You want people to go to the mat screaming about this fact and are struggling that most of the masses have just accepted this as the way of the world. Your principle argument is fair and accurate on the surface, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove. You are fighting the wrong fight within the current structure that exists, but you are fighting that only because of the direct impact on the program you choose to root for.

This is mostly a pointless fight and argument. The NCAA can't do anything about it. The premise of NIL makes this entire conversation "earnings" driven. Which is exactly how and why all of these athletes are suing anytime someone attempts restrict something or reign everything in.

So maybe Howlett tampered? Okay. Maybe you can start a petition to block the transfer. Let's say you're successful. Those players and IU Indy will simply just say that they were approached with an NIL opportunity that was more than what WLU could offer. They will say that boatcapt's petition is limiting their earning potential. That will go before a judge. And they will win - easily - because that legal precedent has already been set in multiple cases already. The general conversation you are trying to have isn't inaccurate. But it's just not worth the negative energy you're giving it at this point.

[Columbuseer]

I didn't say transferring wasn't here. What I'm saying is that there is policy and process to it and in that process, a former coach reaching out to his former players before they have entered the portal is a violation. Just because coaches do it and get away with it and/or people dismiss it as no big deal, doesn't make it not a violation

Since you are asserting that a violation has occurred, did you have access to the transfer portal database that would have shown whether the wlu players were in the portal when the general statement was made? (which was made a week after he told his team that he was leaving and is plenty of time to enter the portal)

Verbalcommits is neither up-to-date nor complete.

If not, I call shenanigans.

[Columbuseer]

Nearly 100% of all transfers today can be described as shady at best. You want people to go to the mat screaming about this fact and are struggling that most of the masses have just accepted this as the way of the world. Your principle argument is fair and accurate on the surface, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to prove. You are fighting the wrong fight within the current structure that exists, but you are fighting that only because of the direct impact on the program you choose to root for.

This is mostly a pointless fight and argument. The NCAA can't do anything about it. The premise of NIL makes this entire conversation "earnings" driven. Which is exactly how and why all of these athletes are suing anytime some tries to get restricted or reigned in.

So maybe Howlett tampered? Okay. Maybe you can start a petition to block the transfer. Let's say you're successful. Those players and IU Indy will simply just say that they were approached with an NIL opportunity that was more than what WLU could offer. They will say that boatcapt's petition is limiting their earning potential. That will go before a judge. And they will win - easily - because that legal precedent has already been set in multiple cases already. The general conversation you are trying to have isn't inaccurate. But it's just not worth the negative energy you're giving it at this point.

Good points. In your scenario, a defamation lawsuit could possibly follow too. Folks behind a keyboard are not immune to being held accountable for their words that damage reputations.

[boatcapt]

Since you are asserting that a violation has occurred, did you have access to the transfer portal database that would have shown whether the wlu players were in the portal when the general statement was made? (which was made a week after he told his team that he was leaving and is plenty of time to enter the portal)

Verbalcommits is neither up-to-date nor complete.

If not, I call shenanigans.

In the investigative world which I come from, we call it reasonable suspicion...certain articulatable facts that indicate that a violation may have happened. An example might be a statement was made that while on it's face is not a violation, it is sufficiently close to a violation to cause a trained agent to think "well that doesn't seem right." I think there is also a misunderstanding about what is evidence. Evidence is simply validated facts that demonstrate an action is likely (OR not likely) to have occurred. At this point, Howlett's statement about bringing in transfers form WLU is documentary evidence that a violation may have occurred. Documentary evidence can be challenged as to it's truthfulness but it can't be challenged on its contents. So, in short, Howlett's statement would give a trained investigator reasonable suspicion that a violation may have occurred. Further investigation (including an interview of Howlett and the transferring players as well as a review of the actual timing of players actual entry into the Portal) would reveal the exact timing of events and if an actual violation occurred.

Worth noting, we are also dealing in the non-criminal relm which has a MUCH lower standard for conviction. In the criminal world we required evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict...In the civil/administrative world were this would fall, the standard is more likely to have occurred than not

I also believe that "shenanigans" occurred...but clearly we have a different definition of shenanigans.

[Columbuseer]

In the investigative world which I come from, we call it reasonable suspicion...certain articulatable facts that indicate that a violation may have happened. An example might be a statement was made that while on it's face is not a violation, it is sufficiently close to a violation to cause a trained agent to think "well that doesn't seem right." I think there is also a misunderstanding about what is evidence. Evidence is simply validated facts that demonstrate an action is likely (OR not likely) to have occurred. At this point, Howlett's statement about bringing in transfers form WLU is documentary evidence that a violation may have occurred. Documentary evidence can be challenged as to it's truthfulness but it can't be challenged on its contents. So, in short, Howlett's statement would give a trained investigator reasonable suspicion that a violation may have occurred. Further investigation (including an interview of Howlett and the transferring players as well as a review of the actual timing of players actual entry into the Portal) would reveal the exact timing of events and if an actual violation occurred.

Worth noting, we are also dealing in the non-criminal relm which has a MUCH lower standard for conviction. In the criminal world we required evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict...In the civil/administrative world were this would fall, the standard is more likely to have occurred than not

I also believe that "shenanigans" occurred...but clearly we have a different definition of shenanigans.

I take that pivot to mean that you did not verify whether the players were already in the portal before making your accusation. If they were in the portal, there is not even a potential violation.

No problem for me, you can believe what you want. Let's move on.

[Columbuseer]

FYI
Two players from Coker have entered the portal due to the coaching change.

Catchings
Vaysbakh

[TopperNation]

FYI
Two players from Coker have entered the portal due to the coaching change.

Catchings
Vaysbakh

After watching some film, I'll pass on those 2.

[boatcapt]

I take that pivot to mean that you did not verify whether the players were already in the portal before making your accusation. If they were in the portal, there is not even a potential violation.

No problem for me, you can believe what you want. Let's move on.

There is no pivot. I base my assessment on experience evaluating statements, intent and human nature. He had everything to gain and not much chance that he would get caught.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I take that pivot to mean that you did not verify whether the players were already in the portal before making your accusation. If they were in the portal, there is not even a potential violation.

No problem for me, you can believe what you want. Let's move on.

The thing we all forget is players are on one-year deals.

That's it. Their scholarship is good for one year at a time. They can leave. The coach can choose to not renew it.

There was a time when we all expected we'd see a player for four years. That period is long gone.

Cheer for the jersey. The names will change yearly. They are all replaceable - players and coaches.

[boatcapt]

FYI
Two players from Coker have entered the portal due to the coaching change.

Catchings
Vaysbakh

Gee...That was quick. The WLU players were in the portal the day that Howlett signed and no on line reporting for over a week. Wink, wink.

[boatcapt]

The thing we all forget is players are on one-year deals.

That's it. Their scholarship is good for one year at a time. They can leave. The coach can choose to not renew it.

There was a time when we all expected we'd see a player for four years. That period is long gone.

Cheer for the jersey. The names will change yearly. They are all replaceable - players and coaches.

Athletic scollys are renewed on July 1. Unless a coach specifically releases the player before then, they are still under contract until July 1.

[Columbuseer]

Gee...That was quick. The WLU players were in the portal the day that Howlett signed and no on line reporting for over a week. Wink, wink.

Players can ask for their release after being notified of a coach's departure, which is 1st step to entering portal. After release, they can initiate contact with their former coach.
The team meeting wgen Ben announced he was leaving occurred on May 22.
He made a general statement about wlu players going to indy on sportsline in May 29. It takes a maximum of 48 hrs for school to submit name to portal. So it is very likely there were players in the portal on May 29.

Fans only learn of portal decision when/if the player posts on social media ( unless they are Columbo and can also hack into the private portal database. Lol)

Google is your friend.

[boatcapt]

Players can ask for their release after being notified of a coach's departure, which is 1st step to entering portal. After release, they can initiate contact with their former coach. The team meeting occurred on May 22.
Fans only learn of portal decision when/if the player posts on social media ( unless they are Columbo and can also hack into the private portal database. Lol)

Google is your friend.

I laid out the process for entering the portal already. Key point is that until the player gets confirmation from the NCAA that they are in the portal, they are not in the portal. Only after they are in the portal can a coach for another team initiate contact. If a coach initiates contact or expresses interest in them before they are in the portal, he has tampered with another teams player.

[Columbuseer]

I laid out the process for entering the portal already. Key point is that until the player gets confirmation from the NCAA that they are in the portal, they are not in the portal. Only after they are in the portal can a coach for another team initiate contact. If a coach initiates contact or expresses interest in them before they are in the portal, he has tampered with another teams player.

Again, have you determined when they entered the portal database? Your whole argument rests on that date.

"If you come to a seeming contradiction, check your assumptions." Ayn Rand

[boatcapt]

Again, have you determined when they entered the portal database?

"If you come to a seeming contradiction, check your assumptions." Ayn Rand

And how do you know that they didn't enter the portal until after Howlett announced that he was looking to bring in WLU players?

"Investigation is not merely collecting facts or data; it's about uncovering the underlying reality that connects those facts. Like putting together a puzzle, the investigator sees how seemingly disparate pieces of information fit together to form a coherent picture – the truth."

Senior Special Agent Richard Roe, Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, Cir. 1997