Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

NW v. WL

Collapse

Support The Site!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • NW v. WL

    Thought I would get a thread started for the game and get perspective from WL fans or opposing team fans who are familiar. From what I know, WL likes to press, speed up the game, and get lots of shots up in a high-scoring affair. It will be quite the contrast in styles.

    NW has 2 POY of the year candidates in PG Hudgins who is probably the best PG in all of D2 and F Hawkins who averages 22 and 8 but can shoot from outside or post up and he is really athletic for a player his size.

    NW will want to slow the game down. They are very methodical with their offense and execute at a high level. I haven't seen any efficiency stats this year but last year they were the most efficient offense in all of college basketball. Their points will come from the lane, 3's, or FT's. They don't mess around with mid-range shots. They shoot at a very high level- 42% from 3 as a team and all of the regulars shoot it at 38% or higher except for one of them who rarely shoots the 3. Hudgins is second in all D2 in 3pt percentage.

    Defensively, they are going to get into you in the half court. They are one of the top defensive teams in the country based on points given up. Hudgins and Bernard are quick (and I'm not sure that justifies what Bernard is). Bernard is an athlete unlike many other. He is a shutdown defensive player. He will most likely guard the best guard on the opposing team. That player may get their points but it's going to be a miserable experience the entire game as long as Bernard stays within himself and out of foul trouble. He is a freak athlete considering speed, quickness, and jumping ability. The rest of the team doesn't do anything spectacular, just sound and fundamental team defense. There will be very few uncontested shots.

    We only play about 7 guys although there are 8 who average 10 or more minutes on the year. This is nothing new for NW under McCollum. Freshman Alexander is first off the bench and he is a slashing player who went 10-10 from the field in the Regional and was MOP. The 8th man has rotated between 3 players this year but is currently a freshman PG. With the WL press, I imagine he will be the 8th man in this game if needed. NW players are used to playing a lot of minutes so I don't imagine that will be an issue, even with the press.

    Two contrasting styles. In the last few years, NW has played similar style teams in Fairmont St in the national title game and St. Thomas Aquinas a couple years ago and were able to impose their will on the pace of the game. I know WL has a long history with their system so it may be a tougher task for NW. I've personally always viewed the press as a gimmick. It works against lesser teams with poor ballhandlers but teams with a good PG will eat it up. NW has the best PG in the country so I'm hoping my personal belief is correct. I'm guessing the first few minutes of the game may present some adjustment periods for NW. Ultimately, the best defense against a press is not to let the other team score so they can set it up. As I said, NW is up there in scoring defense. They are #15 in the country in that area while playing in a very tough conference. That may be the best press breaker they have.

    Would love to get thoughts and insight from WL perspective!

  • #2
    • Wlu averages 1.27 points per possession (ppp) and 103 points per game. They are in top 50 of 24 of 26 relevant national stats.
    • Top 10 in nation in about 17 categories at end of regular season.
    • Not the traditional press as they trap on both made and missed shots. Ultimate goal more than turnovers is to make teams uncomfortable and speed them up. Fatigue is a common outcome and causes opponent FG and FT % to drop. Hillsdale was a 72% ft team and shot 38% FT against wlu
    • They have essentially 10 starters playing positionless basketball.
    • They attack you in waves with hockey line changes of 3 to 4 minutes.
    • Eventually, the mental and physical pressure wears teams down.
    • Three Point shooting down at 38% as last year they shot 42%. Three guys shoot over 40%.
    • Practices are unique. They are 5 on 5 games to 100, which is a total war. They mix up teams but track which players are on winning team.
    • Goal is not to run set plays, but give players freedom to recognize, analyze, and react in real time.
    • Two time all American in Dalton Bolon ( also academic AA too) who may not be best player on team.
    • Lost high flying all conference will yoakum to knee injury 3 weeks ago. He hit 50% from 3 last year and averaged over 15 points oer game. Huge loss.
    • Patrick Robinson III is a handful to stay in front of on rim runs. Deadly from three . All regional tourney team.
    • Team GPA last semester of 3.39.
    Last edited by Columbuseer; 03-18-2021, 01:16 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      FYI

      FYI WLU national d2 stat ranking, as of March 8, 2021
      NCAA ranks the 312 D2 schools in 31 national statistics of which only 26 are relevant to the WLU style(See note below)
      WLU ranks:
      • #1 in Scoring offense at 104.8 pts per game
      • top 5 in 8 categories
      • top 10 in 17 categories
      • top 20 in 20 categories
      • top 50 in 24 categories, which is over 92% of the relevant 26 stats
      Note: The WL style is incongruous with some statistics, such as fewest fouls, personal fouls per game, fewest turnovers, turnovers per game, scoring defense, etc., which leaves only 26 relevant stats for WLU.
      Date Stat Rank Value
      3/8/2021 Scoring Offense 1 104.8
      3/8/2021 Assists per game 2 19.5
      3/8/2021 Scoring margin 2 23
      3/8/2021 Total Rebounds per game 2 44.58
      3/8/2021 Total Assists 4 370
      3/8/2021 Turnover margin 4 5.2
      3/8/2021 Assist to turnover ratio 5 1.64
      3/8/2021 Offensive rebounds per game 5 15.58
      3/8/2021 Rebound Margin 6 9
      3/8/2021 Steals per Game 6 9.3
      3/8/2021 Total Rebounds 6 847
      3/8/2021 Three-point FG per game 7 11.3
      3/8/2021 Turnovers forced per game 7 17.11
      3/8/2021 Total steals 8 177
      3/8/2021 3-point FG attempts 9 580
      3/8/2021 Total three-point FG Made 9 214
      3/8/2021 Defensive Rebounds per game 10 29
      3/8/2021 Free Throw Made 12 343
      3/8/2021 FG percentage 14 49.9
      3/8/2021 Free Throw Attempts 14 455
      3/8/2021 Total Blocks 25 63
      3/8/2021 Three Point FG Defense 33 31.70%
      3/8/2021 Free Throw Percentage 35 75.38%
      3/8/2021 Blocked shots per game 48 3.3

      Comment


      • #4

        Comment


        • #5
          There's no question that WLU hasn't seen anyone like Hudgins. Dale Bonner (Fairmont) & John Williams (Glenville) were probably the two toughest guards WLU faced this year, and I suggested in another thread that I think Hudgins probably makes Bonner look like a walk in the park for his defender. Bonner & Isaiah Sanders of Fairmont were possibly the most potent 1-2 punch WLU saw this year. But I think Hudgins & Bernard will be more challenging than the Fairmont duo. I was only able to watch the second half of the NW & NSU game (because of what time WLU's game ended), but I was really impressed with Bernard (already knew about Hudgins going in, but Bernard was a nice surprise).

          NWHoops mentioned offensive efficiency. I'm not sure of final rankings, but I do know that at one point during the season, Charleston (from the MEC conference) was #1 in the country in half-court offensive efficiency. WLU went 1-1 vs. them this year. But the most recent (round two of the NCAA tourney) was a thorough WLU dismantling of Charleston.

          It's also interesting to note about pacing. It's true that WLU wants to force teams to go faster than they want to. Bad teams fall for it hook, line, and sinker. Good teams tend to be smarter about it and more patient. But it's worth noting that Hillsdale got exactly the pace they wanted in the Regional Final. That was, essentially, a half-court game for much of the game. And WLU locked down on D and beat Hillsdale at its own game (frustrating the heck out of GMAC POY Patrick Cartier).

          In other words, I have no idea what to expect. I remain convinced that a WLU win would be an upset. NW may well be the best team in the country, and your Regional Final with NSU might well have been the de facto National Championship (as was discussed on your board). Accepting all of that, good teams have sometimes found themselves surprised by WLU, which explains the success WLU has had in the past in Regionals and in the NCAA tourney. The big one has escaped WLU so far (not so much for NW!), but they have often comported themselves well at this juncture of the tournament.

          Either way, this ought to be fun. I might be in the minority here, but I'm actually kinda happy WLU gets to face NW. I'd like to see how the team matches up against the best. Ever since watching NW dismantle Fairmont in that National Final, I always wondered how WLU might fare against NW themselves. Wish granted, I guess. LOL

          Comment


          • #6
            (And can I just add parenthetically that it will be much more pleasant to watch Trevor Hudgins run around our defenders for 40 minutes than it would have been to watch Parker Fox thump his chest and "raise the roof" for 40 minutes. Major props to NW's players for being class acts. Hudgins is probably the best (second best at worst) player in NCAA D2. He knows it. And he just goes about his business letting his game do the talking. Much respect.)

            Comment


            • #7
              You hit on classic dilemma. Every team wants to avoid playing at wlu pace. Opposing coaches have several decisions to make on strategy when they break the press. Do you:

              1) attack the rim if u have numbers, or shoot the wide open three with no one under to rebound?
              2) even if you have an advantage, bring the ball out and run your half court sets?
              3) press and run with wlu ?

              Hillsdale did option 2, which seems to be the most popular choice.

              Most coaches agree that option 3 should be avoided. Glenville chose option 3; they chose...poorly.
              Two years ago, wlu won 158-106. Wlu was 13 points away from all time d2 scoring record despite taking off press in second half. Unphased, a good, undefeated Glenville tried option 3 again this season, losing 117-85.

              Your team has the talent to succeed with option 1 or 2 imho.

              Comment


              • #8
                Agree with this. If the pace gets up and down then I still have no concerns for physical or mental fatigue. It's not unusual for NW teams to have 3-4 guys to average mid-30 minutes per game or more. Who knows, I may have to eat my words but I haven't seen any team physically or mentally break NW in a long time. If ever there was a time it would be down 11 with 3 minutes to go and still down 10 with 2 minutes to go in their last game and all they did was respond. Hudgins had 8 points in 23 seconds. He may go the first half and have very few points and you think you have him in check. Then he decides to just take over the game.

                Still not sure on the status of one of our starters who injured a knee towards the end of the Regional final. He came back in the game and seemed to be moving ok but after the game during the celebration he was really hobbled. That could be an issue since they already only play 7 or so regularly.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post
                  You hit on classic dilemma. Every team wants to avoid playing at wlu pace. Opposing coaches have several decisions to make on strategy when they break the press. Do you:

                  1) attack the rim if u have numbers, or shoot the wide open three with no one under to rebound?
                  2) even if you have an advantage, bring the ball out and run your half court sets?
                  3) press and run with wlu ?

                  Hillsdale did option 2, which seems to be the most popular choice.

                  Most coaches agree that option 3 should be avoided. Glenville chose option 3; they chose...poorly.
                  Two years ago, wlu won 158-106. Wlu was 13 points away from all time d2 scoring record despite taking off press in second half. Unphased, a good, undefeated Glenville tried option 3 again this season, losing 117-85.

                  Your team has the talent to succeed with option 1 or 2 imho.
                  NW will take the layup but if it's not there I'm fairly certain they will bring the ball out and run the offense.

                  The last team to score 90 or more points against NW was Duke. The last D2 team to do it was in 2011-12. I would be shocked if WL gets close to their Scoring Offense average for the year.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by NWHoops View Post

                    NW will take the layup but if it's not there I'm fairly certain they will bring the ball out and run the offense.

                    The last team to score 90 or more points against NW was Duke. The last D2 team to do it was in 2011-12. I would be shocked if WL gets close to their Scoring Offense average for the year.
                    Note: that scoring average is a regular season stat (i.e., which includes some BIG games against bad teams). Down the stretch, against playoff teams, that number is probably closer to 75-80. WLU knows they won't be able to have their way with teams in the open floor at this point in the season. But they have also shown the ability to sit down and play stout defense at times as well.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scrub View Post

                      Note: that scoring average is a regular season stat (i.e., which includes some BIG games against bad teams). Down the stretch, against playoff teams, that number is probably closer to 75-80. WLU knows they won't be able to have their way with teams in the open floor at this point in the season. But they have also shown the ability to sit down and play stout defense at times as well.
                      I initially agreed with you, but I had to check just to make sure if the data supported my impression.
                      In the 6 post season games, wlu averaged 92 points. But against a very good, deliberate team like NWMSU, I expect the score to be lower, as well as the points per possession.



                      WEST Lib Stats post season
                      POINTS 92
                      FGM 34
                      FGA 68
                      FGPCT 49.7%
                      3FGM 10.5
                      3FGA 26
                      3FGPCT 40.1%
                      FTM 13.5
                      FTA 20
                      FTPCT 70.0%
                      REBOUND OFFENSIVE 12
                      REBOUND DEFENSIVE 28
                      REBOUND TOTAL 40
                      ASSISTS 13
                      TURNOVERS 10
                      BLOCKS 3
                      STEALS 7
                      Num Possessions 75
                      Points per Possession 1.23
                      Assists per 100 Possessions 17.1
                      Assists / FG Made % 38.3%
                      Assist to Turnover Ratio 1.35
                      Turnovers per 100 Possessions
                      (< better)
                      13.7
                      Opponent Defensive Rebounds 27
                      Offensive Rebound Efficiency % 31.3%
                      Effective FG % 57.5%
                      Effective FG% Difference (team- Opp.) 6.4%
                      FGA % Diff ((team FGA-Opp.FGA)/Opp.) 12.5%
                      Forced Turnovers 13
                      Opponent Possessions 75
                      Forced Turnovers % of Opp. Possession 17.3%

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Just one observation on pace of game and minutes played by opponents. It is not just about scoring and number of possessions. The high scoring is usually an outcome of fatigue, not the primary cause of it.

                        Highly conditioned athletes (like NWMSU) have very short recovery times. Against deliberate opponents, one can jog down the court on defense and offense, without stress, which helps recovery time.

                        Compare that with WLU. WLU gets a defensive rebound or takes ball out quickly after a score, where the outlet pass goes to half court and 5 wlu players are running down on offense. The opponents have to sprint to keep up. They are constantly moving and rotating the ball quickly, making the opponent work hard. On defense, the WLU pressure and ball denial for 94 feet makes opponents work very hard just to get into their offense. Then every 3 or 4 minutes a fresh set of WLU players enter the game.

                        WLU tries to avoid taking time outs unless things go really off the rails. The former coach abhorred media timeouts because it let teams rest. LOL

                        Hillsdale and other playoff opponents recognized this concern, watched for signs of fatigue and subbed more players than usual. But Hillsdale had limited depth.

                        My point is that opposing coaches have to be cognizant of the fatigue factor; but I acknowledge that it may not occur with NWMSU.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                          WLU tries to avoid taking time outs unless things go really off the rails. The former coach abhorred media timeouts because it let teams rest. LOL

                          .
                          I have a fond recollection from a particular Elite 8 game.

                          The media rules for that year's tournament must have stipulated that the first media timeout would occur at its standard time (under 16:00) unless a coach called a timeout before that. If a time out were called, it would automatically become the media timeout. (Not sure if that's standard or if it was stipulated for that tourney--it is so infrequent for a coach to call a timeout in the 4 minutes following halftime, that I honestly don't know what the standard rule is).

                          At any rate, WLU had the ball coming out of half due to possession arrow. Knowing the rule about media timeouts, Crutch called a timeout as soon as the ball inbounded (with 19:59 on the clock). Per rule, it became the media timeout and that way Crutch could bypass the under 16:00 media break. He essentially extended halftime by an extra 2 minutes for commercial break. Then, the opponent had to play continuously until the under 12:00 break.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scrub View Post

                            I have a fond recollection from a particular Elite 8 game.

                            The media rules for that year's tournament must have stipulated that the first media timeout would occur at its standard time (under 16:00) unless a coach called a timeout before that. If a time out were called, it would automatically become the media timeout. (Not sure if that's standard or if it was stipulated for that tourney--it is so infrequent for a coach to call a timeout in the 4 minutes following halftime, that I honestly don't know what the standard rule is).

                            At any rate, WLU had the ball coming out of half due to possession arrow. Knowing the rule about media timeouts, Crutch called a timeout as soon as the ball inbounded (with 19:59 on the clock). Per rule, it became the media timeout and that way Crutch could bypass the under 16:00 media break. He essentially extended halftime by an extra 2 minutes for commercial break. Then, the opponent had to play continuously until the under 12:00 break.
                            LOL
                            St. Crutch is one smart guy. "We've always done that way" was never an acceptable reason for doing anything. He left us in good hands to say the least!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              To beat West Liberty ... you have to deal with the annoyance factor. They play like a bunch of gnats. I don't mean that in a bad way. But, that's what I see. They pester and pester with that press. It swallows up average to good teams. On top of that, they have 10 guys who can all shoot from deep. If you let that 'gnat effect' get to you ... you already lost. If you fall in to the trap of trying to play run-n-gun, you already lost. They WANT you to take that first shot after breaking the press. Fall in to that trap ... and you already lost.

                              Obviously, they don't lose very often. When they do, there's often a common theme. I'm sure NWMS will figure that out in film study this week.

                              You absolutely have to have strong guards -- in particular a PG. WL's 'bigs' really aren't 'bigs' per se. They are effective in that high-speed tempo. They become much less effective in a slow-down game. Question is if you can actually slow down the game.

                              I don't know what Hillsdale's plan was in that game. After watching it ... not sure they even had one. They looked like lost puppies by the first media timeout.

                              If you look back at WL's tournament losses to IUP, Ship and Mercyhurst ... none of them were track meets. Control the tempo ... or get run out of the gym. That's the only two options.

                              Comment

                              Ad3

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X