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2023 Men's Basketball Atlantic Regional Tournament THREAD

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  • The pressing game can be effective now because it is something of a novelty. It's sort of like D1 schools playing the service academies in football and going against the triple option. It's something they don't see these days and even when they can win due to superior athleticism it drives coaches at the bigger schools nuts.

    Press offenses tend to come and go at the college level. Prior to the shot clock era, the press was often used to force tempo. I'm old enough to remember Wooden's first championship team at UCLA before the Abdul-Jabbar and Walton eras. That was actually a smallish press-and-run team led by guards Walt Hazzard and Gail Goodrich. Hard as it is to believe now, the Big 10 actually was something of a run-and-gun league in the late '60s. Purdue in 1969 and Iowa in 1970 averaged almost 100 points a game with no shot clock or three-point basket. Rick Mount at Purdue and Freddie Brown at Iowa probably would have had several hundred more career points if the three-pointer had been in use then. The B1G started to slow when Knight came in at Indiana and dominated with his halfcourt defensive style.

    Pressing is especially effective if the pressing team has more athleticism or if the opposing team has inexperienced or subpar players at guard. Teams with talented guards are not easy to press, but they still might not be used to the tempo of an effective pressing team. In my view, one of the most effective aspects of full-court pressure is not necessarily in getting turnovers, but in forcing the other team to take 6-7 extra seconds to get the ball upcourt, leaving less time to get into an offensive flow. I do shudder when I hear some guys talk of knocking the 30-second college clock down to 24 seconds like the NBA. I see enough wild end-of-possession stuff at the college level now — really don't need any more.

    West Liberty does seem to have the athletic depth to be successful in most types of games this season. It'll be interesting see how they fare as they do deeper into the tournament. Good luck to them.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by cwfenn View Post

      I will say that I’m impressed that they embraced the running game when so many are going the other way and playing slower.
      This link has some quotes from Crutchfield into his philosophy.
      they also practice quite differently than other teams.

      https://basketballimmersion.com/the-...m-crutchfield/

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ship69 View Post
        The pressing game can be effective now because it is something of a novelty. It's sort of like D1 schools playing the service academies in football and going against the triple option. It's something they don't see these days and even when they can win due to superior athleticism it drives coaches at the bigger schools nuts.

        Press offenses tend to come and go at the college level. Prior to the shot clock era, the press was often used to force tempo. I'm old enough to remember Wooden's first championship team at UCLA before the Abdul-Jabbar and Walton eras. That was actually a smallish press-and-run team led by guards Walt Hazzard and Gail Goodrich. Hard as it is to believe now, the Big 10 actually was something of a run-and-gun league in the late '60s. Purdue in 1969 and Iowa in 1970 averaged almost 100 points a game with no shot clock or three-point basket. Rick Mount at Purdue and Freddie Brown at Iowa probably would have had several hundred more career points if the three-pointer had been in use then. The B1G started to slow when Knight came in at Indiana and dominated with his halfcourt defensive style.

        Pressing is especially effective if the pressing team has more athleticism or if the opposing team has inexperienced or subpar players at guard. Teams with talented guards are not easy to press, but they still might not be used to the tempo of an effective pressing team. In my view, one of the most effective aspects of full-court pressure is not necessarily in getting turnovers, but in forcing the other team to take 6-7 extra seconds to get the ball upcourt, leaving less time to get into an offensive flow. I do shudder when I hear some guys talk of knocking the 30-second college clock down to 24 seconds like the NBA. I see enough wild end-of-possession stuff at the college level now — really don't need any more.

        West Liberty does seem to have the athletic depth to be successful in most types of games this season. It'll be interesting see how they fare as they do deeper into the tournament. Good luck to them.
        Your points generally are applicable for d1 pressing teams. Wlu style is much more than just a pressing game.
        Far from a novelty, wlu has been playing their pressure style since circa 2004 when Crutch became head coach.

        Opposing team strategy options:
        1) play slow half court game, starting offense with < 15 secs on shot clock.
        2) choose one of 2 options after breaking press:
        A) attack the rim in transition
        B) Instead of attacking rim after breaking press, pull the ball out and wait to start half court offense.

        The trouble with the slow down game is if wlu gets ahead by 10+, it is not conducive to catching up quickly.
        Teams that run with wlu get into a track meet, where they score 100 points but wlu scores 120+, as a 2018 Glenville team, who wlu defeated 158-106, with wlu scoring 87 points in the first half.

        One way a team can win is to have a dominant big that forces a double team inside and have a deadly 3 pt shooter get a kick out pass from the big, along with a below avg shooting % from wlu.
        Shippensburg with Dustin Sleva was successful with this approach several years ago.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

          Your points generally are applicable for d1 pressing teams. Wlu style is much more than just a pressing game.
          Far from a novelty, wlu has been playing their pressure style since circa 2004 when Crutch became head coach.

          Opposing team strategy options:
          1) play slow half court game, starting offense with < 15 secs on shot clock.
          2) choose one of 2 options after breaking press:
          A) attack the rim in transition
          B) Instead of attacking rim after breaking press, pull the ball out and wait to start half court offense.

          The trouble with the slow down game is if wlu gets ahead by 10+, it is not conducive to catching up quickly.
          Teams that run with wlu get into a track meet, where they score 100 points but wlu scores 120+, as a 2018 Glenville team, who wlu defeated 158-106, with wlu scoring 87 points in the first half.

          One way a team can win is to have a dominant big that forces a double team inside and have a deadly 3 pt shooter get a kick out pass from the big, along with a below avg shooting % from wlu.
          Shippensburg with Dustin Sleva was successful with this approach several years ago.
          While the style is not a novelty for WLU, it is not a commonly played one at most schools, so it is a relative novelty to your opponents, which can be one thing in your favor. Good shooting is important to beating any system. The Shippensburg teams with Dustin Sleva a couple of years back could shoot with anybody on a given night. I believe they shot 80 percent as a team from the free-throw line one season. If you have a guy who can go inside along with tough outside shooters you can beat any system, as evidence in Penn State's recent beatdown of Texas A&M.

          IUP actually got West Liberty down to what should have been a favorable tempo for them, but as IUP posters and others have observed their shooting hasn't been good for weeks. To their credit they squeaked out a number of wins over the past few weeks with strong defense. They beat Mercyhurst by a point in low-scoring PSAC title game and were hanging on by their fingernails at the end of that one. It was pretty obvious that they weren't going to hold West Liberty to 55-60 points, so the handwriting was on the wall.

          I don't think it was the West Liberty system that beat IUP this year. It wasn't as if IUP has been scoring much against any other team recently. West Liberty simply had a better offensive team this year and probably would have won at any tempo. It's a mystery to some of us who've seen Shawndale Jones, Dave Morris, and other other IUP players hit shots in the past as to why they couldn't get it together this year, but that's the way it was.

          West Liberty plays its system well and likely continue to be successful with it as strong guard play is required to beat it and a lot of D2 teams won't match up in quality depth. I'm also surprised at how many players commit basic mistakes against a press these days — throwing or dribbling constantly into double teams in the backcourt corner or failing to run toward the passer when inbounding.

          New Haven would seem to be a matchup that West Liberty should handle in the first Elite Eight game. We'll see how that goes. Good luck.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ship69 View Post

            While the style is not a novelty for WLU, it is not a commonly played one at most schools, so it is a relative novelty to your opponents, which can be one thing in your favor. Good shooting is important to beating any system. The Shippensburg teams with Dustin Sleva a couple of years back could shoot with anybody on a given night. I believe they shot 80 percent as a team from the free-throw line one season. If you have a guy who can go inside along with tough outside shooters you can beat any system, as evidence in Penn State's recent beatdown of Texas A&M.

            IUP actually got West Liberty down to what should have been a favorable tempo for them, but as IUP posters and others have observed their shooting hasn't been good for weeks. To their credit they squeaked out a number of wins over the past few weeks with strong defense. They beat Mercyhurst by a point in low-scoring PSAC title game and were hanging on by their fingernails at the end of that one. It was pretty obvious that they weren't going to hold West Liberty to 55-60 points, so the handwriting was on the wall.

            I don't think it was the West Liberty system that beat IUP this year. It wasn't as if IUP has been scoring much against any other team recently. West Liberty simply had a better offensive team this year and probably would have won at any tempo. It's a mystery to some of us who've seen Shawndale Jones, Dave Morris, and other other IUP players hit shots in the past as to why they couldn't get it together this year, but that's the way it was.

            West Liberty plays its system well and likely continue to be successful with it as strong guard play is required to beat it and a lot of D2 teams won't match up in quality depth. I'm also surprised at how many players commit basic mistakes against a press these days — throwing or dribbling constantly into double teams in the backcourt corner or failing to run toward the passer when inbounding.

            New Haven would seem to be a matchup that West Liberty should handle in the first Elite Eight game. We'll see how that goes. Good luck.
            i misintrepeted the term novelty as meaning a short-term fad. Thanks for the clarification.

            New haven has a week to prepare, which is a big plus.
            Their big man could give wlu problems along with their great guards.

            IUP fans know more about their offensive woes than I.
            However, as an outsider, I was surprised that their outstanding guards chose not to attack the rim in transition after breaking the press. Also, I was surprised by the ball sticking on offense and the shot difficulty.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

              i misintrepeted the term novelty as meaning a short-term fad. Thanks for the clarification.

              New haven has a week to prepare, which is a big plus.
              Their big man could give wlu problems along with their great guards.

              IUP fans know more about their offensive woes than I.
              However, as an outsider, I was surprised that their outstanding guards chose not to attack the rim in transition after breaking the press. Also, I was surprised by the ball sticking on offense and the shot difficulty.

              New Haven having a week to prepare helps, but let's not forget that IUP knows West Liberty like the back of their hand and they still got handled. This New Haven team is good, but not anything close to IUP or Mercyhurst for that matter, who if they made the elite 8 would be ranked higher than New Haven. Let's go WL this is set up for us to make it to the finals, then it's let see who has the ball last vs Nova lol.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TopperNation View Post


                New Haven having a week to prepare helps, but let's not forget that IUP knows West Liberty like the back of their hand and they still got handled. This New Haven team is good, but not anything close to IUP or Mercyhurst for that matter, who if they made the elite 8 would be ranked higher than New Haven. Let's go WL this is set up for us to make it to the finals, then it's let see who has the ball last vs Nova lol.
                What? IUP knows WL by the back of their hand? They haven't played since 2015 so please tell me how those IUP players know WL by the back of their hand.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by IUPalum View Post

                  What? IUP knows WL by the back of their hand? They haven't played since 2015 so please tell me how those IUP players know WL by the back of their hand.
                  You beat me to this. Both Shippensburg and Mercyhurst have played West Liberty more than IUP since they last played. Not a single player on either team had ever played against each other.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by IUPalum View Post

                    What? IUP knows WL by the back of their hand? They haven't played since 2015 so please tell me how those IUP players know WL by the back of their hand.
                    You can't beat game experience, but I would say WLU and IUP know each other about as well as you can know a team from another conference (without actually playing them). They have been the top two teams in the same region for quite a few seasons and have been in the NCAA Regionals on quite a few occasions. I'd be surprised if Joe and his staff didn't pay close attention to them and have a pretty good idea of how they wanted to attack them even before the opening tip of this year's regionals.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                      You can't beat game experience, but I would say WLU and IUP know each other about as well as you can know a team from another conference (without actually playing them). They have been the top two teams in the same region for quite a few seasons and have been in the NCAA Regionals on quite a few occasions. I'd be surprised if Joe and his staff didn't pay close attention to them and have a pretty good idea of how they wanted to attack them even before the opening tip of this year's regionals.
                      Thank you Boat for getting my point, lol. I was simply saying IUP has played West Liberty enough to have an idea of the speed and the pressure that they would receive, where as New Haven can watch all the film they want for a week, but until they get on the floor and witness it themselves they will be behind the 8 ball.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TopperNation View Post


                        New Haven having a week to prepare helps, but let's not forget that IUP knows West Liberty like the back of their hand and they still got handled. This New Haven team is good, but not anything close to IUP or Mercyhurst for that matter, who if they made the elite 8 would be ranked higher than New Haven. Let's go WL this is set up for us to make it to the finals, then it's let see who has the ball last vs Nova lol.
                        Imho seedings mean very little in the elite 8. Typically all the coaches are excellent. Matchups are much more important.
                        Imho, wlu vs new haven is a risky matchup for both.

                        Wlu challenge -7-1 defensive center who could attract double teams for kickout to great shooting guards or disrupt wlu inside game.

                        new haven challenge - no team has played 7 guys without cracking from fatigue, resulting in a blackout.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                          Imho seedings mean very little in the elite 8. Typically all the coaches are excellent. Matchups are much more important.
                          Imho, wlu vs new haven is a risky matchup for both.

                          Wlu challenge -7-1 defensive center who could attract double teams for kickout to great shooting guards or disrupt wlu inside game.

                          new haven challenge - no team has played 7 guys without cracking from fatigue, resulting in a blackout.
                          Sorry Columbuseer but seedings mean a lot when you're talking about the elite 8, I could simply reference 2 years ago when West Liberty got seeded 7th when they were clearly better than 3rd seeded Flagler and 6th seeded Truman. I watched all those games and thought to myself, Nobody was going to beat NWMS but that doesn't mean WL didn't deserve a better seeding and opening round matchup. Yes, all teams at the elite 8 are good, but who you are matched up with matters in most years.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TopperNation View Post

                            Sorry Columbuseer but seedings mean a lot when you're talking about the elite 8, I could simply reference 2 years ago when West Liberty got seeded 7th when they were clearly better than 3rd seeded Flagler and 6th seeded Truman. I watched all those games and thought to myself, Nobody was going to beat NWMS but that doesn't mean WL didn't deserve a better seeding and opening round matchup. Yes, all teams at the elite 8 are good, but who you are matched up with matters in most years.
                            I share your opinion that wlu was 3rd best team that year. That tourney was for 2nd place.

                            I agree with your last sentence that it is about matchups. Seedings matter only indirectly to the extent that it might coincidentally avoid bad matchups. I think nova this year has some difficult matchups.

                            last year # 8 beat #1 by 10
                            #3 defeated #2 by 15
                            #5 won It all by beating #3 because advantage of hudgens >> 7ft center and mccollum >> coach.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                              I think nova this year has some difficult matchups.
                              I don't like the general vibe that WLU fans seem to imply that WLU's side of the bracket is somehow a cakewalk. Let's get through a match-up with a defensively minded team with an athletic 7-footer in the middle before we think about what's next.

                              But if you want to think about what might await, I'm not sure why everyone is overlooking a Black Hills team that took out Crutchfield last year and has the D2CCA player of the year Joel Scott (who, by the way, beat out Bryce Butler for player of the year in that particular poll).

                              There's no such thing as a waltz to the final, and I do not share the rampant overconfidence that seems to be running through the WLU fanbase right now. Buckle down and take care of business--one game at a time.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TopperNation View Post

                                Thank you Boat for getting my point, lol. I was simply saying IUP has played West Liberty enough to have an idea of the speed and the pressure that they would receive, where as New Haven can watch all the film they want for a week, but until they get on the floor and witness it themselves they will be behind the 8 ball.
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