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2023 Men's Basketball Atlantic Regional Tournament THREAD

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  • Originally posted by Layton View Post
    I have not seen another team run a full game full court press with high efficient offense and a winning culture other than us and Nova. It’s very hard to do and implement and get the buy in. Obviously it’s not perfect as we haven’t gotten over the national championship hump. On paper WL should be very disadvantaged with our location and school size but we have overcome it thanks to Crutch and Howlett and that system/culture. Crutch has significantly better resources/location down at Nova which may finally get him over the hump. Would love to see that final
    Another unique aspect is that WLU traps on missed shots. Most teams press only after made baskets. Also, all players on the roster can run the court and shoot the three. Some traditional center-forward based teams have had trouble defending the three, especially in transition.

    New Haven played zone against Bentley who appears to be a 5-out team.
    WLU opponents have tried zone, but had to abandon it, as it was dissected.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

      What opponents remind you of wlu? I am curious to learn more, as I only knew of Nova se and bluefield state in wv that played that style.
      East Stroudsburg here in the Atlantic Region runs a style that could be deemed similar.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Layton View Post
        I have not seen another team run a full game full court press with high efficient offense and a winning culture other than us and Nova. It’s very hard to do and implement and get the buy in. Obviously it’s not perfect as we haven’t gotten over the national championship hump. On paper WL should be very disadvantaged with our location and school size but we have overcome it thanks to Crutch and Howlett and that system/culture. Crutch has significantly better resources/location down at Nova which may finally get him over the hump. Would love to see that final
        Meh, it’s 10% system, 90 % players. Very few games are wins against better players. Maybe helps against big teams a little, but any fast break offense does that. Mostly it helps run up scores against teams with weaker players. The gaudy numbers probably help recruit, though

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

          Meh, it’s 10% system, 90 % players. Very few games are wins against better players. Maybe helps against big teams a little, but any fast break offense does that. Mostly it helps run up scores against teams with weaker players. The gaudy numbers probably help recruit, though
          Interesting viewpoint.
          Like any system, one has to recruit players who fit that particular system. Bolon and dyer were not highly recruited and were projected to be good bench players at wlu . Yoakum was considered too slender and had to redshirt just to get stronger.

          Many great basketball players don't want to play this style and only play 25 mins a game. Fewer still can withstand the strenuous exertion.

          Crutch once commented on the lack of athletes: "We have not won a pre-game warmup yet." Lol

          However, coach howlett is starting to get better athletes.

          The fact that Boston Celtics and Miami Heat staff asked to meet with Crutch was due to the system, not the athletes.

          Imho the wlu system is based on 5 out, positionless basketball that also puts continous offensive and defensive pressure on opponents, creating fatigue. Fatigue makes great players look mediocre. If they reach the fatigue tipping point, a wlu blackout can occur, where the opponent goes from down 10 to down 30 in 5 or 6 minutes.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Scrub View Post

            East Stroudsburg here in the Atlantic Region runs a style that could be deemed similar.
            ESU has run the press under Wilson for quite a while and has had some success with it. This year they did have trouble with teams that had experienced guards who liked to run such as West Chester and Lock Haven. They also didn't have as many offensive horses this year as West Liberty.

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            • I think this is a really bad matchup for New Haven the more I learn. Just have to do what we do.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                Interesting viewpoint.
                Like any system, one has to recruit players who fit that particular system. Bolon and dyer were not highly recruited and were projected to be good bench players at wlu . Yoakum was considered too slender and had to redshirt just to get stronger.

                Many great basketball players don't want to play this style and only play 25 mins a game. Fewer still can withstand the strenuous exertion.

                Crutch once commented on the lack of athletes: "We have not won a pre-game warmup yet." Lol

                However, coach howlett is starting to get better athletes.

                The fact that Boston Celtics and Miami Heat staff asked to meet with Crutch was due to the system, not the athletes.

                Imho the wlu system is based on 5 out, positionless basketball that also puts continous offensive and defensive pressure on opponents, creating fatigue. Fatigue makes great players look mediocre. If they reach the fatigue tipping point, a wlu blackout can occur, where the opponent goes from down 10 to down 30 in 5 or 6 minutes.
                Bottom line is NWMSU has been the dominant team over the last 5 years, and WLU hasn't dominated the Atlantic region, even. WLU has a great program, they have recruited great athletes, and used their talents well. Their team this year is really good. But, they're players would be just fine with any system. Good shooting is pretty important no matter how you play.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ship69 View Post

                  ESU has run the press under Wilson for quite a while and has had some success with it. This year they did have trouble with teams that had experienced guards who liked to run such as West Chester and Lock Haven. They also didn't have as many offensive horses this year as West Liberty.
                  Wlu played esu last season. Forced 26 turnovers and won by 15.
                  I wonder if New Haven has played anyone this year who resembles ESU or WLU?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

                    Bottom line is NWMSU has been the dominant team over the last 5 years, and WLU hasn't dominated the Atlantic region, even. WLU has a great program, they have recruited great athletes, and used their talents well. Their team this year is really good. But, they're players would be just fine with any system. Good shooting is pretty important no matter how you play.
                    So true about great shooting. NWMSU had deadly shooters and 2 near-nba level players. Plus one of the top 2 or 3 coaches in d2 imho. Their ball movement always resulted in a great shot. 5 out basketball relies on great shooting. But a great shooter does necessarily imply great athlete in the traditional sense. Wlu does not put as much emphasis on height and strength as other traditional teams. This year is first year in recent memory that we have had two bigs at 6-7. Helps that 6-8 Hinds is deadly from three. All can handle the ball.

                    In many cases, when wlu loses, it is because opponent has better athletes combined with insanely good shooting and bad wlu shooting night. Example is wvsu last year. Matchup nightmare for wlu. Insane opponent shooting % resulted in 3 losses this year.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                      Wlu played esu last season. Forced 26 turnovers and won by 15.
                      I wonder if New Haven has played anyone this year who resembles ESU or WLU?
                      ESU was pretty good, not great last year. Ship beat them two of the three times they played and actually took them down fairly easily in a PSAC tourney quarterfinal game there. Funny thing was that they beat Ship in a halfcourt grinder game, while Ship took them down twice in uptempo games, which you would have thought would be to ESU's liking. ESU had a good season this year, but I really thought they'd be stronger given the number of players they had returning. They didn't even win the PSAC East this season.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

                        Bottom line is NWMSU has been the dominant team over the last 5 years, and WLU hasn't dominated the Atlantic region, even. WLU has a great program, they have recruited great athletes, and used their talents well. Their team this year is really good. But, they're players would be just fine with any system. Good shooting is pretty important no matter how you play.
                        I mean this in no disrespect to any West Liberty posters, but years ago I grew tired of the constant infatuation with and dissection of "the system." They're a great program. They have an elite team this year. Not because of the system, but because they have good players. But they've not been elite like this for a while. That "system" lost in the 1st round last year. It hasn't dominated the Atlantic Region for some time now. They have not had a team this good since their 2014 and 2015 teams probably, and they've deployed the same "system" for that entire period of time. They beat IUP because they're better than IUP. Not because of the system. Their players are better shooters and are more gifted offensively. But they were also held to 70 points, which should beat West Liberty 9 times out of 10 given how they prefer to play. The pace was played where they weren't comfortable. Their possessions were limited. Many times they had to make baskets inside of the waning moments of an offensive possession because IUP allowed little in transition and forced them to play in the half-court. They shot 51%, so I can't say they were "shut down" defensively, but I can say that their flow, strategy, and "system" were disrupted for most of the night.

                        The manner in which the game played out essentially highlights two things:

                        1. The "system" can be beat by any team who can buckle down defensively.
                        2. West Liberty wins not because of their system, but because they have gifted offensive players who can score the basketball and hit jump shots at a high %.

                        They can talk all they want about the system, but they simply have better players this year than they've had in the past couple. That's why the results show what they show. Again, you hold that team to 70 points, you should beat them nearly every time. If IUP had better shooters or players more offensively gifted, they probably would be preparing for a rematch against New Haven.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by IUP24 View Post

                          I mean this in no disrespect to any West Liberty posters, but years ago I grew tired of the constant infatuation with and dissection of "the system." They're a great program. They have an elite team this year. Not because of the system, but because they have good players. But they've not been elite like this for a while. That "system" lost in the 1st round last year. It hasn't dominated the Atlantic Region for some time now. They have not had a team this good since their 2014 and 2015 teams probably, and they've deployed the same "system" for that entire period of time. They beat IUP because they're better than IUP. Not because of the system. Their players are better shooters and are more gifted offensively. But they were also held to 70 points, which should beat West Liberty 9 times out of 10 given how they prefer to play. The pace was played where they weren't comfortable. Their possessions were limited. Many times they had to make baskets inside of the waning moments of an offensive possession because IUP allowed little in transition and forced them to play in the half-court. They shot 51%, so I can't say they were "shut down" defensively, but I can say that their flow, strategy, and "system" were disrupted for most of the night.

                          The manner in which the game played out essentially highlights two things:

                          1. The "system" can be beat by any team who can buckle down defensively.
                          2. West Liberty wins not because of their system, but because they have gifted offensive players who can score the basketball and hit jump shots at a high %.

                          They can talk all they want about the system, but they simply have better players this year than they've had in the past couple. That's why the results show what they show. Again, you hold that team to 70 points, you should beat them nearly every time. If IUP had better shooters or players more offensively gifted, they probably would be preparing for a rematch against New Haven.
                          No disrespect taken.

                          IUP is an excellent defensive team. However, wlu offensive rating for finals was 114 pts per 100 possessions, which is good enough to win almost all games, even though it was below their season average of 124 (2nd only to nova at 125). IUP season average was 111 points per 100 possessions. Wlu held IUP TO 89 points per 100 possessions in the final, despite IUP being bigger and stronger with D1 level players and killing wlu on the boards, which indicates great defense by wlu. Wlu can play a slowdown game.

                          Offensive rating is a good stat for evaluating offense and defense because it is independent of pace of play.

                          However, do you think fatigue played a factor in the IUP loss? Fatigue lowers shooting %, makes players a step slow and affects judgment.

                          Fatigue causes desperation passes from a backcourt corner trap travel 50 feet diagonally across midcourt to an imaginary player and sail out of bounds for a turnover. Look at the layups wlu got in half court sets.

                          i have witnessed fatigue in nearly wlu game. Fatigue makes great players mediocre players.

                          Glenville was up 15 points on wlu (they beat Fairmont twice) with 5 min. remaining in 1st half. They led until 11 min left in second half when they hit a fatigue tipping point. Wlu won by 12. Their players admitted they ran out of gas.

                          One could argue Fairmont should have beaten us twice. In the MEC final, in 3rd game in 3 days, they hit the fatigue tipping point and were down by 41 with 3 minutes left.

                          The challenge is that it takes a special player to subject their body to this effort, when they could easily go somewhere else and be a star. But any system can be beaten with enough good players and a good coach. Many superstar players go elsewhere.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                            No disrespect taken.

                            IUP is an excellent defensive team. However, wlu offensive rating for finals was 114 pts per 100 possessions, which is good enough to win almost all games, even though it was below their season average of 124 (2nd only to nova at 125). IUP season average was 111 points per 100 possessions. Wlu held IUP TO 89 points per 100 possessions in the final, despite IUP being bigger and stronger with D1 level players and killing wlu on the boards, which indicates great defense by wlu. Wlu can play a slowdown game.

                            Offensive rating is a good stat for evaluating offense and defense because it is independent of pace of play.

                            However, do you think fatigue played a factor in the IUP loss? Fatigue lowers shooting %, makes players a step slow and affects judgment.

                            Fatigue causes desperation passes from a backcourt corner trap travel 50 feet diagonally across midcourt to an imaginary player and sail out of bounds for a turnover. Look at the layups wlu got in half court sets.

                            i have witnessed fatigue in nearly wlu game. Fatigue makes great players mediocre players.

                            Glenville was up 15 points on wlu (they beat Fairmont twice) with 5 min. remaining in 1st half. They led until 11 min left in second half when they hit a fatigue tipping point. Wlu won by 12. Their players admitted they ran out of gas.

                            One could argue Fairmont should have beaten us twice. In the MEC final, in 3rd game in 3 days, they hit the fatigue tipping point and were down by 41 with 3 minutes left.

                            The challenge is that it takes a special player to subject their body to this effort, when they could easily go somewhere else and be a star. But any system can be beaten with enough good players and a good coach. Many superstar players go elsewhere.
                            You mostly ignored everything I said and then cherry picked what you wanted to send me advanced analytics in hopes of me saying that IUP was fatigued by West Liberty.

                            When you hold a team significantly below their season average, which IUP did, and that team plays and scores the way West Liberty does, you should find a way to win that game. IUP didn't. Not because "West Liberty is chaotic." Not because "their lungs and legs just didn't have it anymore." Not because "the system mentally frazzled them, eventually leading to physical fatigue and desperation." IUP wasn't fatigued. They just weren't good enough offensively. And regardless what any analytical metrics show, that's been the story for a very solid 7-8 weeks.

                            Much of IUP's offense in the 2nd half was Shawndale Jones throwing up running layups from terrible angles, or trying to back guys down in the low post as a guard. That had absolutely nothing to do with West Liberty's system. That's been their offense since about mid-January. IUP posters have been talking about this for 2 months. That eventually, they would play a team that was offensively efficient and they wouldn't be able to score enough. And that's what happened.

                            So revisiting my original point, IUP lost because West Liberty had better players that were more efficient and gifted offensively. The script of that game played out how it should go for any team who wants to beat West Liberty. The pace was to IUP's liking. West Liberty had to play offense deep into the shot clock many possessions. There wasn't a ton of buckets in transition. IUP simply could not score the basketball. Which was opposite of how the script went in 2015. IUP implemented the same approach in both games. In the 2015 game, West Liberty played perfect offensively. They shot it at 52% from the field and 61% from beyond the arc. The problem was, IUP was damn good offensively too. They were 58% from the field and 52% from beyond the arc. So again, why did West Liberty win on Tuesday? Because they had a team who was far superior offensively. Better players, not a better system. IUP's defense controlled pace and limited possessions and offensive output in both games. However, in 2015 they had skilled offensive players who could score the basketball. In 2023, they didn't. Goes back to my point.. West Liberty won because of better players, not because of system. The system can be beaten by anyone, but you need good enough players to do it.

                            And if you're still not sold on what I'm saying, look at IUP's last 5 games... 53, 60, 52, 54, 67. Do you think that's even close to good enough? Or perhaps they were simply fatigued in the four games prior thinking about a likely matchup with West Liberty. IUP shot over 35% from beyond the arc just 3 times since the calendar turned to 2023. They were often shooting it from deep in the mid 20s%. That's not nearly good enough. They only had a field goal % above 45% 9 times in since January 1st. That's not nearly good enough. They were an abysmal jump shooting team most of the year. And when the calendar turned to January, their offense, to put it bluntly, was average at best most nights. I'll take holding West Liberty to 70 points every time. But when your squad is unable to hit 70, it's nearly impossible to win against any team who regularly shoots it at a good %.

                            Edit...

                            I will add... I will buy that IUP could have been fatigued, but that had nothing to do with West Liberty. They were likely fatigued before they even walked into the building on Tuesday. Hindsight being 20/20, IUP probably would have been far better off playing a finesse and undermanned UPJ team and a small Mercyhurst lineup. The football games against Winston Salem and Virginia Union on consecutive days in no way helped their chances entering Tuesday night. But that's how tournament basketball goes. It's more about matchups than anything else. And you could argue that they had a tougher road than anybody. Not saying that those teams were more talented than others, but because when you play them, they take a pound of flesh.
                            Last edited by IUP24; 03-16-2023, 06:09 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Of course the system matters. I don’t see us being nearly as successful running a different style with the same players.

                              And the Atlantic Region runs through the hilltop and has for 15 years or so

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Layton View Post
                                Of course the system matters. I don’t see us being nearly as successful running a different style with the same players.

                                And the Atlantic Region runs through the hilltop and has for 15 years or so
                                2009 (Host: Gannon) - Gannon
                                2010 (Host: IUP) - IUP
                                2011 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
                                2012 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
                                2013 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
                                2014 (Host: East Stroud) - West Liberty
                                2015 (Host: West Liberty) - IUP
                                2016 (Host: Wheeling) - West Liberty
                                2017 (Host: Fairmont) - Fairmont
                                2018 (Host: Virginia State) - East Stroud
                                2019 (Host: IUP) - Mercyhurst
                                2020 (Host: IUP) - COVID-19
                                2021 NO TRUE ATLANTIC REGION
                                2022 (Host: IUP) - IUP
                                2023 (Host: IUP) - West Liberty

                                Hosts:
                                IUP (5)
                                West Liberty (4)
                                Gannon (1)
                                East Stroud (1)
                                Wheeling (1)
                                Fairmont (1)
                                Virginia State (1)

                                Winners:
                                West Liberty (6)
                                IUP (3)
                                Fairmont (1)
                                East Stroud (1)
                                Mercyhurst (1)
                                Gannon (1)

                                If anything, the Atlantic Region is very strong and balanced. West Liberty had a very nice run from 2011-2014. Outside of that, this has been an incredibly balanced region. Every represented league has hosted the regional. Six different schools have won the regional in that time span. Seven times the host school did not win. Seems like a very deep regional field.

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