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2023 Men's Basketball Atlantic Regional Tournament THREAD

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  • Originally posted by IUP24 View Post

    You mostly ignored everything I said and then cherry picked what you wanted to send me advanced analytics in hopes of me saying that IUP was fatigued by West Liberty.

    When you hold a team significantly below their season average, which IUP did, and that team plays and scores the way West Liberty does, you should find a way to win that game. IUP didn't. Not because "West Liberty is chaotic." Not because "their lungs and legs just didn't have it anymore." Not because "the system mentally frazzled them, eventually leading to physical fatigue and desperation." IUP wasn't fatigued. They just weren't good enough offensively. And regardless what any analytical metrics show, that's been the story for a very solid 7-8 weeks.

    Much of IUP's offense in the 2nd half was Shawndale Jones throwing up running layups from terrible angles, or trying to back guys down in the low post as a guard. That had absolutely nothing to do with West Liberty's system. That's been their offense since about mid-January. IUP posters have been talking about this for 2 months. That eventually, they would play a team that was offensively efficient and they wouldn't be able to score enough. And that's what happened.

    So revisiting my original point, IUP lost because West Liberty had better players that were more efficient and gifted offensively. The script of that game played out how it should go for any team who wants to beat West Liberty. The pace was to IUP's liking. West Liberty had to play offense deep into the shot clock many possessions. There wasn't a ton of buckets in transition. IUP simply could not score the basketball. Which was opposite of how the script went in 2015. IUP implemented the same approach in both games. In the 2015 game, West Liberty played perfect offensively. They shot it at 52% from the field and 61% from beyond the arc. The problem was, IUP was damn good offensively too. They were 58% from the field and 52% from beyond the arc. So again, why did West Liberty win on Tuesday? Because they had a team who was far superior offensively. Better players, not a better system. IUP's defense controlled pace and limited possessions and offensive output in both games. However, in 2015 they had skilled offensive players who could score the basketball. In 2023, they didn't. Goes back to my point.. West Liberty won because of better players, not because of system. The system can be beaten by anyone, but you need good enough players to do it.

    And if you're still not sold on what I'm saying, look at IUP's last 5 games... 53, 60, 52, 54, 67. Do you think that's even close to good enough? Or perhaps they were simply fatigued in the four games prior thinking about a likely matchup with West Liberty. IUP shot over 35% from beyond the arc just 3 times since the calendar turned to 2023. They were often shooting it from deep in the mid 20s%. That's not nearly good enough. They only had a field goal % above 45% 9 times in since January 1st. That's not nearly good enough. They were an abysmal jump shooting team most of the year. And when the calendar turned to January, their offense, to put it bluntly, was average at best most nights. I'll take holding West Liberty to 70 points every time. But when your squad is unable to hit 70, it's nearly impossible to win against any team who regularly shoots it at a good %.

    Edit...

    I will add... I will buy that IUP could have been fatigued, but that had nothing to do with West Liberty. They were likely fatigued before they even walked into the building on Tuesday. Hindsight being 20/20, IUP probably would have been far better off playing a finesse and undermanned UPJ team and a small Mercyhurst lineup. The football games against Winston Salem and Virginia Union on consecutive days in no way helped their chances entering Tuesday night. But that's how tournament basketball goes. It's more about matchups than anything else. And you could argue that they had a tougher road than anybody. Not saying that those teams were more talented than others, but because when you play them, they take a pound of flesh.
    Scoring avg is meaningless. Points per possession is what matters.

    wlu was lucky they had tough prior games.

    Coaches from other teams (concord in tourney, etc.) have admitted fatigue in post game press conf, so IUP is just probably unique. Did you watch Lombardi press conference? He alluded to guys playing a lot of minutes but not giving up.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by IUP24 View Post

      2009 (Host: Gannon) - Gannon
      2010 (Host: IUP) - IUP
      2011 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
      2012 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
      2013 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
      2014 (Host: East Stroud) - West Liberty
      2015 (Host: West Liberty) - IUP
      2016 (Host: Wheeling) - West Liberty
      2017 (Host: Fairmont) - Fairmont
      2018 (Host: Virginia State) - East Stroud
      2019 (Host: IUP) - Mercyhurst
      2020 (Host: IUP) - COVID-19
      2021 NO TRUE ATLANTIC REGION
      2022 (Host: IUP) - IUP
      2023 (Host: IUP) - West Liberty

      Hosts:
      IUP (5)
      West Liberty (4)
      Gannon (1)
      East Stroud (1)
      Wheeling (1)
      Fairmont (1)
      Virginia State (1)

      Winners:
      West Liberty (6)
      IUP (3)
      Fairmont (1)
      East Stroud (1)
      Mercyhurst (1)
      Gannon (1)

      If anything, the Atlantic Region is very strong and balanced. West Liberty had a very nice run from 2011-2014. Outside of that, this has been an incredibly balanced region. Every represented league has hosted the regional. Six different schools have won the regional in that time span. Seven times the host school did not win. Seems like a very deep regional field.
      Before "the system", zero 20 win seasons. After Crutch arrived, nothing less than 20 wins, and 85% winning % over last 12 years. Folks at their first wlu game look at both teams warming up and think wlu is going to get killed. And then the game starts and it is lions attacking wildebeest.

      I hope all other teams continue to believe it is not the system and keep their existing system. As better athletes want to play at wlu, it can only get better for wlu.


      Comment


      • Originally posted by IUP24 View Post

        2009 (Host: Gannon) - Gannon
        2010 (Host: IUP) - IUP
        2011 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
        2012 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
        2013 (Host: West Liberty) - West Liberty
        2014 (Host: East Stroud) - West Liberty
        2015 (Host: West Liberty) - IUP
        2016 (Host: Wheeling) - West Liberty
        2017 (Host: Fairmont) - Fairmont
        2018 (Host: Virginia State) - East Stroud
        2019 (Host: IUP) - Mercyhurst
        2020 (Host: IUP) - COVID-19
        2021 NO TRUE ATLANTIC REGION
        2022 (Host: IUP) - IUP
        2023 (Host: IUP) - West Liberty

        Hosts:
        IUP (5)
        West Liberty (4)
        Gannon (1)
        East Stroud (1)
        Wheeling (1)
        Fairmont (1)
        Virginia State (1)

        Winners:
        West Liberty (6)
        IUP (3)
        Fairmont (1)
        East Stroud (1)
        Mercyhurst (1)
        Gannon (1)

        If anything, the Atlantic Region is very strong and balanced. West Liberty had a very nice run from 2011-2014. Outside of that, this has been an incredibly balanced region. Every represented league has hosted the regional. Six different schools have won the regional in that time span. Seven times the host school did not win. Seems like a very deep regional field.
        My man when one school has twice as many championships as the second place team that’s probably a good indication of who’s the top dog. I’m not worried about who hosts as they don’t play the same opponents

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

          Scoring avg is meaningless. Points per possession is what matters.

          wlu was lucky they had tough prior games.

          Coaches from other teams (concord in tourney, etc.) have admitted fatigue in post game press conf, so IUP is just probably unique. Did you watch Lombardi press conference? He alluded to guys playing a lot of minutes but not giving up.
          I'm not even really sure what we're arguing about anymore. I think you want people to bow to the system, and not recognize that you simply have far superior players playing in that system than you've had in the past seven or so years. I'm openly saying that West Liberty had a better team and more talented players than what IUP trotted out there on Tuesday night, independent of any system. You are the one who is discrediting the players on your own roster, because you want to praise Howlett and Crutchfield. You have arguably the best player in Division 2 basketball. For years you had an elite scorer who transferred up to College of Charleston and was the leading scorer on a team that played in the NCAA Tournament today. West Liberty gets ELITE basketball players. To scoff at what they recruit and just chalk it up to the system is, in my opinion, kind of a slap at the talented players you pull for nightly.

          Again though, you ignored what I said about IUP just simply not being a very good offensive team. And you're cherry picking advanced stats in an attempt to say West Liberty fatigued IUP. And if they did, so what? Nothing that happened in that basketball game from reading the box score looks any different than any other game they played in the 2nd half of the season. Go ask any other IUP poster here. They weren't good for nearly two months. There were nights they were barely shooting it 40% from the field and just winning because they suffocated lesser than teams. That was not going to work indefinitely. Their offensive woes were well documented LONG before the Atlantic Regional Championship. So yeah, to your point, points per possession is what matters. And West Liberty's offensive efficiency in that regard is why the game was won. They would have won it when the two met in 2015, but IUP had better offensive players on their team. To which, that's my argument about the system being beatable. If you want to toss out points per possession as a number, that's fine. And recognizing that number, if you have a team who can significantly slow down tempo and scoring, that team can win against a "SYSTEM" like West Liberty deploys if they have gifted offensive players who can match their offensive efficiency. IUP didn't have those players. That's literally all I'm trying to say.

          And I'm only referencing 2015 because that was the last time the two schools played.
          Last edited by IUP24; 03-16-2023, 07:47 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by IUP24 View Post

            I'm not even really sure what we're arguing about anymore. I think you want people to bow to the system, and not recognize that you simply have far superior players playing in that system than you've had in the past seven or so years. I'm openly saying that West Liberty had a better team and more talented players than what IUP trotted out there on Tuesday night, independent of any system. You are the one who is discrediting the players on your own roster, because you want to praise Howlett and Crutchfield. You have arguably the best player in Division 2 basketball. For years you had an elite scorer who transferred up to College of Charleston and was the leading scorer on a team that played in the NCAA Tournament today. West Liberty gets ELITE basketball players. To scoff at what they recruit and just chalk it up to the system is, in my opinion, kind of a slap at the talented players you pull for nightly.

            Again though, you ignored what I said about IUP just simply not being a very good offensive team. And you're cherry picking advanced stats in an attempt to say West Liberty fatigued IUP. And if they did, so what? Nothing that happened in that basketball game from reading the box score looks any different than any other game they played in the 2nd half of the season. Go ask any other IUP poster here. They weren't good for nearly two months. There were nights they were barely shooting it 40% from the field and just winning because they suffocated lesser than teams. That was not going to work indefinitely. Their offensive woes were well documented LONG before the Atlantic Regional Championship. So yeah, to your point, points per possession is what matters. And West Liberty's offensive efficiency in that regard is why the game was won. They would have won it when the two met in 2015, but IUP had better offensive players on their team. To which, that's my argument about the system being beatable. If you want to toss out points per possession as a number, that's fine. And recognizing that number, if you have a team who can significantly slow down tempo and scoring, that team can win against a "SYSTEM" like West Liberty deploys if they have gifted offensive players who can match their offensive efficiency. IUP didn't have those players. That's literally all I'm trying to say.

            And I'm only referencing 2015 because that was the last time the two schools played.
            I can understand why you think wlu only gets elite athletes, as you are not close to the program. However i agree that over the last 6 years, we have gotten better pure athletes.

            You mentioned Bolon so i did some research. He walked on at wlu. I know Luke Dyer was told he would probably never start. Like others, dalton was not elite when recruited, but made himself elite through hard work after getting to west liberty.
            Great story on Dalton. He confirms that he walked on and had 0 d2 offers. He made all conference at charleston. Butler has put in countless hours on his own.

            https://www.postandcourier.com/sport...0892dc167.html
            Last edited by Columbuseer; 03-16-2023, 08:51 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Scrub View Post

              Although a couple of 6's might get through as well (both leading right now). So it's possible New Haven could be the 6 or 7 in the Elite 8. It's a weird year in the tourney.

              And if the WTAMU score holds (with them down to Black Hills right now), only ONE #1 seed will be through. That's crazy to think at the D2 level where home court is in play.
              Sometimes, it's not the seedings ... it's about how Team A matches up against Team B. Typically, you can throw the seeds out the window when it comes to the D2 tournament, depending on the region.
              Cal U (Pa.) Class of 2014

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                Before "the system", zero 20 win seasons. After Crutch arrived, nothing less than 20 wins, and 85% winning % over last 12 years. Folks at their first wlu game look at both teams warming up and think wlu is going to get killed. And then the game starts and it is lions attacking wildebeest.

                I hope all other teams continue to believe it is not the system and keep their existing system. As better athletes want to play at wlu, it can only get better for wlu.

                Averaging over 100 points a game - that's some Paul Westhead/Jerry Tarkanian stuff right there.

                Curious where Crutchfield came from with that system, since there are only a few coaches who run like that anymore. Did he learn it from anyone or was influenced by someone, or is it completely his own thing?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ctrabs74 View Post

                  Sometimes, it's not the seedings ... it's about how Team A matches up against Team B. Typically, you can throw the seeds out the window when it comes to the D2 tournament, depending on the region.
                  I agree it is all about matchups.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by cwfenn View Post

                    Averaging over 100 points a game - that's some Paul Westhead/Jerry Tarkanian stuff right there.

                    Curious where Crutchfield came from with that system, since there are only a few coaches who run like that anymore. Did he learn it from anyone or was influenced by someone, or is it completely his own thing?
                    He was an assistant here when he got the job and was actually a very successful tennis coach here as well. He also was a successful high school coach at a tiny rural high school in this area before that too. Pretty remarkable story

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by cwfenn View Post

                      Averaging over 100 points a game - that's some Paul Westhead/Jerry Tarkanian stuff right there.

                      Curious where Crutchfield came from with that system, since there are only a few coaches who run like that anymore. Did he learn it from anyone or was influenced by someone, or is it completely his own thing?
                      Here is what I have read.
                      Crutch was wlu tennis coach, winning numerous conf. coach of year awards and assistant bball coach. When head coach left, he got the job.

                      Excerpt from article below:

                      He [Crutchfield] said, ‘You know how late in the game when a team is down by eight points and they press like crazy and the intensity is real high ‘” Huffman recalled. “I wonder if there is a way I could play that way for 40 minutes.”

                      https://coachad.com/articles/mayjune-2014-west-liberty/


                      Here is a recent article on his influences. Celtics and Heat have picked his brain.

                      https://www.theintelligencer.net/spo...ten-his-roots/

                      Here are national stats for wlu

                      FYI NCAA stats west liberty as of Feb 27 2023 after Wheeling Game
                      Improving in turnovers forced, steals, and offensive rebounds
                      Worsening in 3 pt % and turnovers per game



                      1st- 3pt attempts per game 33.6 Nova SE is #44 at 25.4
                      1st- Assist to turnover ratio 1.94 Nova SE is #4 at 1.64
                      1st- 3pt made per game 12.7 Nova SE #23 at 10.1
                      1st - assists per game 22.9 Nova SE is #2 at 22.1

                      2nd- scoring 101.1 Nova SE is #1 at 104.4
                      2nd- Forced turnovers 19.89 Nova se is #1 at 23.30

                      3rd -Turnover margin 8.1 Nova se is #1 at 10.0
                      3rd - Scoring margin 19 Nova se is #1 at 27
                      3rd - Steals per game 11.1 Nova se is #1 at 12.2


                      20th - FG % 49.14 Nova SE #3 at 51.95%
                      26th - Offensive rebounds per game 12.82 Nova SE #3 at 14.48
                      42th - 3 pt % 37.83 Nova SE #9 at 39.94

                      59th – Turnovers per Game 11.8 Nova SE 144th at 13.1
                      101st - FT % 73.56 Nova SE 51st 75.85
                      148th - Rebound margin 0.4 Nova SE 14th 6.8

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                        Scoring avg is meaningless. Points per possession is what matters.

                        wlu was lucky they had tough prior games.

                        Coaches from other teams (concord in tourney, etc.) have admitted fatigue in post game press conf, so IUP is just probably unique. Did you watch Lombardi press conference? He alluded to guys playing a lot of minutes but not giving up.
                        Fatigue certainly helped the game get away from IUP in the second half and got the margin to what it was, but realistically that game was over at halftime. When WL pushed the lead to 8 in the final minute, IUP was never going to come back because they weren’t capable offensively. I said it in the IUP thread, even when the game was going back and forth for much of the first half, IUP didn’t have “it”. No energy, no spark. They were basically just hanging on as long as they could. The team we watched in December and January, that just got after people even when the shooting woes started, for whatever reason, wasn’t there anymore. They really weren’t there in the first 2 rounds either, but the CIAA teams couldn’t exploit that nearly as effectively as WL could.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Layton View Post

                          He was an assistant here when he got the job and was actually a very successful tennis coach here as well. He also was a successful high school coach at a tiny rural high school in this area before that too. Pretty remarkable story
                          He was the tennis coach here when he got job.

                          Edit: Sorry--just saw that Columbus already mentioned that.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by IUP24 View Post

                            I'm not even really sure what we're arguing about anymore. I think you want people to bow to the system, and not recognize that you simply have far superior players playing in that system than you've had in the past seven or so years. I'm openly saying that West Liberty had a better team and more talented players than what IUP trotted out there on Tuesday night, independent of any system. You are the one who is discrediting the players on your own roster, because you want to praise Howlett and Crutchfield. You have arguably the best player in Division 2 basketball. For years you had an elite scorer who transferred up to College of Charleston and was the leading scorer on a team that played in the NCAA Tournament today. West Liberty gets ELITE basketball players. To scoff at what they recruit and just chalk it up to the system is, in my opinion, kind of a slap at the talented players you pull for nightly.

                            Again though, you ignored what I said about IUP just simply not being a very good offensive team. And you're cherry picking advanced stats in an attempt to say West Liberty fatigued IUP. And if they did, so what? Nothing that happened in that basketball game from reading the box score looks any different than any other game they played in the 2nd half of the season. Go ask any other IUP poster here. They weren't good for nearly two months. There were nights they were barely shooting it 40% from the field and just winning because they suffocated lesser than teams. That was not going to work indefinitely. Their offensive woes were well documented LONG before the Atlantic Regional Championship. So yeah, to your point, points per possession is what matters. And West Liberty's offensive efficiency in that regard is why the game was won. They would have won it when the two met in 2015, but IUP had better offensive players on their team. To which, that's my argument about the system being beatable. If you want to toss out points per possession as a number, that's fine. And recognizing that number, if you have a team who can significantly slow down tempo and scoring, that team can win against a "SYSTEM" like West Liberty deploys if they have gifted offensive players who can match their offensive efficiency. IUP didn't have those players. That's literally all I'm trying to say.

                            And I'm only referencing 2015 because that was the last time the two schools played.
                            For years under Crutch, WLU was all "system" with almost no players that people would describe as "athletes." As Crutch famously said, "We've never won a pre-game warm-up." The teams won because of the system that focused on developing extreme conditioning in the players, constant unrelenting defensive and offensive pressure, ball movement and pin-point 3 point shooting. Under Ben, WLU has really tried to upgrade the 'athletacism" of it's players while still focusing on the system. While I don't think anyone can argue that we are better athletically than we were during the Crutch years, I'd be hard pressed to believe we have the best athletes in the DII basketball world. I will say that better athletes bring better athlete problems. Under Crutch, not many players had the chops to even believe they could break their player down 1 on 1. Now, we often have 3 or 4 players on the court that think that they can do that and at times, the "system" has broken down. It has cost us some games over the last several seasons but in the big scheme of things, not a whole lot of games.

                            Under Crutch WLU was close to 100% system with very little top flight athletics...Under Ben I would say WLU is 70% system with 30% athletic ability.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                              For years under Crutch, WLU was all "system" with almost no players that people would describe as "athletes." As Crutch famously said, "We've never won a pre-game warm-up." The teams won because of the system that focused on developing extreme conditioning in the players, constant unrelenting defensive and offensive pressure, ball movement and pin-point 3 point shooting. Under Ben, WLU has really tried to upgrade the 'athletacism" of it's players while still focusing on the system. While I don't think anyone can argue that we are better athletically than we were during the Crutch years, I'd be hard pressed to believe we have the best athletes in the DII basketball world. I will say that better athletes bring better athlete problems. Under Crutch, not many players had the chops to even believe they could break their player down 1 on 1. Now, we often have 3 or 4 players on the court that think that they can do that and at times, the "system" has broken down. It has cost us some games over the last several seasons but in the big scheme of things, not a whole lot of games.

                              Under Crutch WLU was close to 100% system with very little top flight athletics...Under Ben I would say WLU is 70% system with 30% athletic ability.
                              Looking at your program from afar, I’d agree with all of this, though after what I saw Sunday and Tuesday I think this particular group would excel playing just about any style. They’d probably struggle against a real giant like the center from Augusta, but, who wouldn’t?

                              For all the sniping we all do on here, I do like how WL plays. I always thought the way Crutchfield just trusted his players to do what they do, in a sport where most coaches micromanage every single possession, was refreshing. I haven’t watched as much since Howlett took over. It does seem like he might be a little more “hands on” during games, but still nothing like you see with most coaches.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                                Here is what I have read.
                                Crutch was wlu tennis coach, winning numerous conf. coach of year awards and assistant bball coach. When head coach left, he got the job.

                                Excerpt from article below:

                                He [Crutchfield] said, ‘You know how late in the game when a team is down by eight points and they press like crazy and the intensity is real high ‘” Huffman recalled. “I wonder if there is a way I could play that way for 40 minutes.”

                                https://coachad.com/articles/mayjune-2014-west-liberty/


                                Here is a recent article on his influences. Celtics and Heat have picked his brain.

                                https://www.theintelligencer.net/spo...ten-his-roots/

                                Here are national stats for wlu

                                FYI NCAA stats west liberty as of Feb 27 2023 after Wheeling Game
                                Improving in turnovers forced, steals, and offensive rebounds
                                Worsening in 3 pt % and turnovers per game



                                1st- 3pt attempts per game 33.6 Nova SE is #44 at 25.4
                                1st- Assist to turnover ratio 1.94 Nova SE is #4 at 1.64
                                1st- 3pt made per game 12.7 Nova SE #23 at 10.1
                                1st - assists per game 22.9 Nova SE is #2 at 22.1

                                2nd- scoring 101.1 Nova SE is #1 at 104.4
                                2nd- Forced turnovers 19.89 Nova se is #1 at 23.30

                                3rd -Turnover margin 8.1 Nova se is #1 at 10.0
                                3rd - Scoring margin 19 Nova se is #1 at 27
                                3rd - Steals per game 11.1 Nova se is #1 at 12.2


                                20th - FG % 49.14 Nova SE #3 at 51.95%
                                26th - Offensive rebounds per game 12.82 Nova SE #3 at 14.48
                                42th - 3 pt % 37.83 Nova SE #9 at 39.94

                                59th – Turnovers per Game 11.8 Nova SE 144th at 13.1
                                101st - FT % 73.56 Nova SE 51st 75.85
                                148th - Rebound margin 0.4 Nova SE 14th 6.8
                                I will say that I’m impressed that they embraced the running game when so many are going the other way and playing slower.

                                Comment

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