Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Incongruity of multi billion $ d1 athletics business and amateurism

Collapse

Support The Site!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Incongruity of multi billion $ d1 athletics business and amateurism

    The Alston case and NIL is just the start of seismic change in the structure of d1 revenue sports.
    Some thoughts for discussion.

    The inherent incongruity of big d1 athletic business and college education as an amateur can no longer co-exist.

    1. The time requirements for d1 athletes are not conducive to achieving their academic potential.
    2. Parents will rebel against $2-5k tuition going to support paid athletes.
    3. Someone will win a class action lawsuit stating that academic requirement for college admission is restraint of trade for gifted athletes who cannot qualify. Colleges have been caught committing academic fraud in current system.Your ACT score has no correlation with whether you can make a tackler miss in the open field. They will need to defer free education, whether college or trade school, until after athletic career is over.
    4. Colleges will need to avoid liability of CTE lawsuits and may divest in some way, maybe just licensing use of name and logo for team.
    5. Current system encourages buying players, with it now being in the open with NIL, allowing rich to get richer. Like NFL and NBA, colleges will have to revert to salary cap and draft. This actually might increase competition and reveal the actual good coaches from the snake oil salespersons.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post
    The Alston case and NIL is just the start of seismic change in the structure of d1 revenue sports.
    Some thoughts for discussion.

    The inherent incongruity of big d1 athletic business and college education as an amateur can no longer co-exist.

    1. The time requirements for d1 athletes are not conducive to achieving their academic potential.

    -That's subjective, but I'm guessing by and large it's already there and has been for quite some time.

    2. Parents will rebel against $2-5k tuition going to support paid athletes.

    -They should, but they aren't really rebelling against the egregious increase in costs coming from the academic side. So long as they see the long term "value," they'll still push their kids to go regardless of cost. It's a huge problem right now that's only going to get worse.

    3. Someone will win a class action lawsuit stating that academic requirement for college admission is restraint of trade for gifted athletes who cannot qualify. Colleges have been caught committing academic fraud in current system.Your ACT score has no correlation with whether you can make a tackler miss in the open field. They will need to defer free education, whether college or trade school, until after athletic career is over.

    -Interesting point. I could see this happening, but as a non-legal expert who didn't research the possibility - I'd have to imagine that would be a losing bet. Even if they won, you'd have upset parents on the academic side who's academically gifted kid couldn't get in because their spot was given to a D average athlete. Ultimately, a college's ability to function is up to the accrediting body, and they won't like it so much if the schools start lowering/shifting standards based on athletics (IMO).

    4. Colleges will need to avoid liability of CTE lawsuits and may divest in some way, maybe just licensing use of name and logo for team.

    -Not sure how NIL/Salaries would affect this.

    5. Current system encourages buying players, with it now being in the open with NIL, allowing rich to get richer. Like NFL and NBA, colleges will have to revert to salary cap and draft. This actually might increase competition and reveal the actual good coaches from the snake oil salespersons.

    -Guaranteed an CFB/CBB draft won't happen. That sounds like it would suck, honestly. Imagine having no chance at the NFL, and being arbitrarily bound to a college based not what's best for you or your education (and ultimately your career), but based on a coach/scout popularity contest. Maybe if the P5 did a pool you had to consent too, maybe - but even that's never going to happen.
    It looks like you are confusing NIL with players drawing a salary. NIL is a good thing. Players can now profit off their hardwork through endorsements, just as anyone else can, and with no burden to the tuition-paying students. I support it fully, and don't see as many changes coming to the landscape that a lot of people are doomsday'ing about. Granted, I'm pro-money, so I might see it differently than a lot of people.

    Honestly, I'm starting to think Europe figured this out better than we did. No high school sports, no college sports, no pay-to play - you join an academy as a kid and it becomes your life. Their top athletes are signing mega-contracts at 18 while ours are four years away from becoming professionals. No wonder we had to invent our own sports to compete against the rest of the world.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

      It looks like you are confusing NIL with players drawing a salary. NIL is a good thing. Players can now profit off their hardwork through endorsements, just as anyone else can, and with no burden to the tuition-paying students. I support it fully, and don't see as many changes coming to the landscape that a lot of people are doomsday'ing about. Granted, I'm pro-money, so I might see it differently than a lot of people.

      Honestly, I'm starting to think Europe figured this out better than we did. No high school sports, no college sports, no pay-to play - you join an academy as a kid and it becomes your life. Their top athletes are signing mega-contracts at 18 while ours are four years away from becoming professionals. No wonder we had to invent our own sports to compete against the rest of the world.
      I agree that Europe has a better model. Our model began before pro leagues exploded in income. Heck, in the 50s and early 60s pro players had outside jobs to supplement income.
      NIL and salary is a fine line indeed. There is no objective measure that NIL payments reflect market value. Am I really going to buy a car because an 18 yr old said so?. But the business does not care about ROI, as they are boosters with $ to burn. Schools want to avoid employee status for athletes at all costs - with its workers comp, 401ks, tax burden and collective bargaining risks, to name a few.
      d1 sports is like having a 35hr a week job that beats u up every day. Athletes are steered away from their preferred majors toward majors conducive to sports schedule. Google 2015 ncaa survey of athletes.

      Some univ. presidents (ND?) are floating the idea of decoupling fb and bb from univ, with some sort of licensing arrangement.
      Regarding D+ student getting a schollie over gifted academic athlete - that is already happening. Best athlete gets schollie regardless of grades. Social promotions and grade inflation. There was a player at usc who played football and who was reading at 2nd grade level after he was thru playing. Made 60 minutes.

      The hypocrisy is rampant. At least some players are getting NIL for being exploited.
      Last edited by Columbuseer; 08-25-2022, 07:46 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Eventually, this will lead to the unraveling of college money earning sports. It will take a while to devolve and the colleges with big time programs will not go quietly, but over time, they will fail. What we will end up with is effectively is a professional minor league system for team sports. Some of the big name colleges may be able to sell their name to individual teams but that is where the connection ends and most of the fans that drive the insane $s will see through that. They will quickly realize that the "Crimson Tide" football club and the second tier pro players on the team has zippy to do with Alabama.

        As with most things, there will be a relatively small number of players that eventually make big dollars, but most at best will make a very low salary (fyi...Triple-A baseball players make roughly $700/wk over a 5 month season) for a few years before going into the real world armed, maybe, with nothing more than a high school diploma.

        Concerning the European sports model, I note that a player basketball web site I found says most pro players earn in the $700-$2000/mo range during the season.
        Last edited by boatcapt; 08-25-2022, 08:06 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
          Concerning the European sports model, I note that a player basketball web site I found says most pro players earn in the $700-$2000/mo range during the season.
          My only reference point is NW players who have played overseas. They have all made significantly more than that and also have food, housing, and other benefits paid for them that are not included in their salary. Even if it is $2000/month and you have rent, utilities, and food paid for then you basically have your entire income as disposable income.

          Comment


          • #6
            The comparison was to provide a sort of analog to what a "college" player might make if you detach the team from the college...which is were I think we are headed. You will have the odd player that makes big $s but pretty quickly, players like that will "graduate" to the NFL/NBA.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
              Eventually, this will lead to the unraveling of college money earning sports. It will take a while to devolve and the colleges with big time programs will not go quietly, but over time, they will fail. What we will end up with is effectively is a professional minor league system for team sports. Some of the big name colleges may be able to sell their name to individual teams but that is where the connection ends and most of the fans that drive the insane $s will see through that. They will quickly realize that the "Crimson Tide" football club and the second tier pro players on the team has zippy to do with Alabama.

              As with most things, there will be a relatively small number of players that eventually make big dollars, but most at best will make a very low salary (fyi...Triple-A baseball players make roughly $700/wk over a 5 month season) for a few years before going into the real world armed, maybe, with nothing more than a high school diploma.

              Concerning the European sports model, I note that a player basketball web site I found says most pro players earn in the $700-$2000/mo range during the season.
              Good points. I see d1 fb and bb possibly moving toward the existing Overtime Elite model after decoupling from universities.
              https://www.overtimeelite.com/facts

              Open question: do D1 fans really care if players attend class? For example, do wvu fans associate wvu fb and bb with pride in the school or pride in the state? Or notre dame with its subway alumni?
              if the latter view is predominant, then decoupling from school may not have a major impact.

              Another issue: If they decouple and become minor pro leagues, is Title IX moot?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                Good points. I see d1 fb and bb possibly moving toward the existing Overtime Elite model after decoupling from universities.
                https://www.overtimeelite.com/facts

                Open question: do D1 fans really care if players attend class? For example, do wvu fans associate wvu fb and bb with pride in the school or pride in the state? Or notre dame with its subway alumni?
                if the latter view is predominant, then decoupling from school may not have a major impact.

                Another issue: If they decouple and become minor pro leagues, is Title IX moot?
                I wouldn't say that fans of D1 care if players go to class, but they do care that they go in a general sense to the school they support. Would a notional "Crimson Tide Football Club" who's only attachment to the Univ of Alabama is a naming rights deal put some fans in the stands? Sure...maybe 10,000 but certainly not the 98,000 they draw now.

                As for the financial impact on the schools, yes, it would be major. Since the "European Model" has been bandied about as better than what we do here, I would note they do have universities in Europe but they don't have the alumni donation system we have.

                What would benefit is the AAU or similar pay for play organization that has "tournaments" at various spots. They make their $s through sponsorships and team entrance fees then offer a deminimus amount of prize money to the winners.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                  ....

                  As for the financial impact on the schools, yes, it would be major. Since the "European Model" has been bandied about as better than what we do here, I would note they do have universities in Europe but they don't have the alumni donation system we have.
                  ...
                  Taking WVU as an example, I think vast majority of WVU fans did not go to WVU, and look at WVU success as an endorsement of their state's value, who goodness knows, has endured its share of unfair stereotypes and ridicule.

                  Athletics at European universities is non-existent, according to Penn State study.
                  https://sites.psu.edu/bradleyrcl/201...tic%20programs.

                  From this article:
                  "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

                    Taking WVU as an example, I think vast majority of WVU fans did not go to WVU, and look at WVU success as an endorsement of their state's value, who goodness knows, has endured its share of unfair stereotypes and ridicule.

                    Athletics at European universities is non-existent, according to Penn State study.
                    https://sites.psu.edu/bradleyrcl/201...tic%20programs.

                    From this article:
                    "
                    The European school system is quite different than the US system. In Germany for example, every student is evaluated at age 10 and put into one of three "tracks" were they study for the rest of their basic academic careers. They are Haupschule (technical school) that focuses on teaching trades with a bit of traditional academics, Realschule (middle management prep) focuses on teaching students how to be middle managers in government and private industry then there is Gymnasium which is designed to prepare students for attendance at universities. Only Gymnasium graduates are guranteed seats in a German University.

                    Also worth noting that school is usually only in the morning...leaving most afternoon's for the athletically inclined to get to their village sports club and practice!

                    A recent addition is the Sportschule that focuses athletically gifted students on courses of study that enhances their athletic gifts...Think of then as a publicly funded IMG Academies across germany!!
                    Last edited by boatcapt; 08-27-2022, 06:32 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I like the European model of decoupling athletics from academics with the club system. May explain why they are better in fundamental skills due to structured, consistent developmental approach. Also allows equal opportunities for great athletes who are better suited for trade school rather than college. It also eliminates the academic fraud that exists in usa college athletics and which exploits athletes,

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think 90% of the colleges playing the keep-up-with-Alabama game can't do it. I think 5 or 6 schools maybe can ... maybe. Alabama will pay its next coach $30M a year, it's coordinators $10M a year and all the starters $3M a year and backups $500K to $1M a year. People laugh at me for this, like they laughed a decade ago when I said the $10M a year coach is coming.

                        The Miss. States, Northwesterns, even Wisconsins, will desperately try to keep up, spending and spending only to see their .500 or a little better records intact. Let the 5 or 6 schools form their own little league and call themselves national champs. Everyone else can't keep up. To win a national title in 5 years it will take $300M to $500M for just a football program -- not an athletic dept. -- to do this. College presidents are crazy for chasing this.

                        I live in the West, UCLA and USC will be sending their already mediocre baseball teams to Happy Valley and New Jersey for league games only to get snowed out? Freaking crazy.

                        The Big 10 can brag about their new contract, so what? All they do is spend every cent of it. Michigan for years was in athletic dept. debt despite 110K fans at their football games.

                        I'll go to D2 games this year and enjoy it and hope this slime doesn't ooze down to the lower levels.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tsull View Post
                          I think 90% of the colleges playing the keep-up-with-Alabama game can't do it. I think 5 or 6 schools maybe can ... maybe. Alabama will pay its next coach $30M a year, it's coordinators $10M a year and all the starters $3M a year and backups $500K to $1M a year. People laugh at me for this, like they laughed a decade ago when I said the $10M a year coach is coming.

                          The Miss. States, Northwesterns, even Wisconsins, will desperately try to keep up, spending and spending only to see their .500 or a little better records intact. Let the 5 or 6 schools form their own little league and call themselves national champs. Everyone else can't keep up. To win a national title in 5 years it will take $300M to $500M for just a football program -- not an athletic dept. -- to do this. College presidents are crazy for chasing this.

                          I live in the West, UCLA and USC will be sending their already mediocre baseball teams to Happy Valley and New Jersey for league games only to get snowed out? Freaking crazy.

                          The Big 10 can brag about their new contract, so what? All they do is spend every cent of it. Michigan for years was in athletic dept. debt despite 110K fans at their football games.

                          I'll go to D2 games this year and enjoy it and hope this slime doesn't ooze down to the lower levels.
                          Great points. Most non elite d1 school athletic depts are already losing big $ and it will only get worse.
                          The pro facilities are focused only on maximizing development and performance of the athlete. They are spartan compared to the facilities of the elite schools, which must focus on recruiting with their lazy float rivers.
                          As you said, it is futile for the non elites to try to compete.

                          I like d2 for the same reasons as you like D2. West Liberty only recruits actual students who don't need babysitters to ensure they attend class. That is true for many other d2 schools too.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post
                            I like the European model of decoupling athletics from academics with the club system. May explain why they are better in fundamental skills due to structured, consistent developmental approach. Also allows equal opportunities for great athletes who are better suited for trade school rather than college. It also eliminates the academic fraud that exists in usa college athletics and which exploits athletes,
                            The system for players in Germany/Europe is QUITE different. First of all, it is a pay for play system...you want to be a member of the club? You pay. Want to partisipate in one of the sports teams? You pay. Also, each club and team of the club is commercially sponsored and the sponsorship is PROMINENTLY displayed on every article of clothing/uniform! And prominent players are expected to partisipate in local events for the team's sponsors. No NIL in Europe...sport club and sponsor own the numbers, uniform images and the players "time" is given over 100% to the sponsors!!!

                            I recall a few years back when Euro's were first coming to the US to play college athletics that MANY of them were found to not meet the ameture requirements of the NCAA. NCAA assessment at the time was that because the players clubs (and teams) were sponsored, that the sponsorship was related to on-field performance (more wins, more sponsorship $'s) AND the clubs used the $ coming from the sponsor to provide direct coaching and facilities to the players, the players were professionals who were "paid" (better coaching, improved facilities, etc) for their performance.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                              The system for players in Germany/Europe is QUITE different. First of all, it is a pay for play system...you want to be a member of the club? You pay. Want to partisipate in one of the sports teams? You pay. Also, each club and team of the club is commercially sponsored and the sponsorship is PROMINENTLY displayed on every article of clothing/uniform! And prominent players are expected to partisipate in local events for the team's sponsors. No NIL in Europe...sport club and sponsor own the numbers, uniform images and the players "time" is given over 100% to the sponsors!!!

                              I recall a few years back when Euro's were first coming to the US to play college athletics that MANY of them were found to not meet the ameture requirements of the NCAA. NCAA assessment at the time was that because the players clubs (and teams) were sponsored, that the sponsorship was related to on-field performance (more wins, more sponsorship $'s) AND the clubs used the $ coming from the sponsor to provide direct coaching and facilities to the players, the players were professionals who were "paid" (better coaching, improved facilities, etc) for their performance.
                              Hmm. Pay to be member of club? Sounds like AAU lol

                              Given the large numbers of euro players on usa d1 and d2 rosters, it appears meeting NCAA reqs. Is no longer a major issue.
                              There are 663 international players in d1, of which 269 are European.
                              https://basketballncaa.com/the-globa...ge-basketball/


                              The decoupling of athletics from universities would remove much of the academic fraud and exploitation. Overtime Elite gives athletes 100k for education if they don't make nba. Similar thing could be done with clubs.

                              Comment

                              Ad3

                              Collapse
                              Working...
                              X