Will we have football in the fall?

[boatcapt]

Apologies if I misunderstood...The amount of lives who have paid the price for the lack of leadership will be the lingering legacy of this crisis. I hope that future administrations will remember this as a low point in response...I never thought that throwing paper towels to hurricane victims could be surpassed on the crisis response meter...

So let's make you president, what would you do? Remember, what you do has to be constitutional and in accordance with the law. Can't just say, I'd order everyone to wear a mask without sighting what legal authority you had to issue that order and how you would legally enforce such an order. Going to give trillions to research? OK, were is that $ going to come from? What about protestors that are not wearing face masks and practicing social distancing? You going to arrest them?

[Turbonium]

So let's make you president, what would you do? Remember, what you do has to be constitutional and in accordance with the law. Can't just say, I'd order everyone to wear a mask without sighting what legal authority you had to issue that order and how you would legally enforce such an order. Going to give trillions to research? OK, were is that $ going to come from? What about protestors that are not wearing face masks and practicing social distancing? You going to arrest them?

Wait, the president needs to do things in accordance with the law? Has anyone told him this?

[boatcapt]

Wait, the president needs to do things in accordance with the law? Has anyone told him this?

Sure does. And if he violates the law, the courts say so.

Soooo...are you advocating that the President send in the military to arrest people who are not wearing masks, possibly including protestors, and then deal with the courts after the fact?

[Turbonium]

Sure does. And if he violates the law, the courts say so.

Soooo...are you advocating that the President send in the military to arrest people who are not wearing masks, possibly including protestors, and then deal with the courts after the fact?

Lol, sure they do...on paper. That's not reality.

Am I advocating that? No. We are months too late for effective leadership from the top down to do anything. However, protestors are already being arrested by federal agents in unmarked vans so what's the difference?

[Turbonium]

"I'll be right eventually. I will be right eventually. You know I said, 'It's going to disappear.' I'll say it again," Trump said in an interview on "Fox News Sunday."

Lol, we can only hope Donald.

[SW_Mustang]

Lol, sure they do...on paper. That's not reality.

Am I advocating that? No. We are months too late for effective leadership from the top down to do anything. However, protestors are already being arrested by federal agents in unmarked vans so what's the difference?

Some of them are. The haircut protesters with guns were allowed to protest "peacefully."

Weird how that works.

[boatcapt]

Lol, sure they do...on paper. That's not reality.

Am I advocating that? No. We are months too late for effective leadership from the top down to do anything. However, protestors are already being arrested by federal agents in unmarked vans so what's the difference?

Are you saying the protestors being arrested are not breaking the law or are you saying they should be immune from arrest for breaking the law? Why does it matter if the van is unmarked? Are you saying that federal agents can only arrest people if they are riding in marked vans?

[boatcapt]

Some of them are. The haircut protesters with guns were allowed to protest "peacefully."

Weird how that works.

Yea...Those protests in Portland sure seem peaceful. Is firebomb a building really peaceful???

[chapmaja]

Yea...Those protests in Portland sure seem peaceful. Is firebomb a building really peaceful???

The vast majority of protesters in Portland, and elsewhere around this country have been peacefully protesting. The problem is the small percentage of protesters who not protesting, but instead are rioting. The difference, in my opinion is respect for other peoples property and rights. I have absolutely no problem is someone wants to yell, scream, carry a sign, have sit in, ect as a form of protest. What I have a problem with is when you start trying to destroy other peoples property, injury or kill other people, or in some other way interfere with the rights of others. The SCOTUS has made it very clear that limits can be put on the rights of people when they interfere with the rights of other people. The classic example is yelling FIRE in a crowded theater. Your right to freedom of speech does not override the rights of others in the venue to safety.

Where the problem is in the United States (and now across the world), is the view of the protesters is not always being accurately portrayed. The media, which has long sought out being the news story, rather than reporting the news as it happens, only shows the most negative aspects of the protests. They show the rioters throwing firebombs into buildings by a few select individuals who should (in my opinion), be charged to the fullest extent of the law. They don't show the thousands of people simply standing on the side of the street chanting and holding signs. That would disrupt the media's goal of creating the news rather than reporting what is happening.

I personally have experience with a protest and being lumped in with the "no good group." During my junior year of high school, the school board was attempting to cut costs. Among the options was privatizing the custodial, bus service and food service staff within the district. The companies who were going to be contracted to do the work had made it clear that the pay would be $X, which was about 50% less than what the staff was making working for the district. Many of the people the students had grown up working with (custodians, lunch ladies, bus drivers) would be forced to stop working for the school system. These were the people the students knew, and the staff had come to rely on for years and years. As a result, the students in the high school (junior class, the seniors already checked out mentally by this point, granted most were never there to being with, they were not the brightest class), organized a walkout to protest the decision. News of the walkout at the high school spread to the middle school. At the appointed time, the students who were participating (roughly 50% of the high school students), walked out and protested in the parking lot. Our middle school was across the parking lot and the schools were in a residential area. During the protest, a couple middle school students decided it would be fun to sneak away and break into garages of homes in the area. They did about $10,000 dollars worth of damage to a home and the owners property in the process. The home owner attempted to sue each and every person who was involved in the protest (not just the kids who did the damage) plus the school district. Thankfully it never got to the point we had to go to court, but a few "protesters" ruined the reputation of the rest of us. We did however get the result we were looking for, temporarily. The district did not privatize at that time. Two years latter they did, but the contracts included an agreement that existing employees would be paid something like 85% of their previous pay. New employees would be hired at a lower wage. As a result many of those employees took the smaller pay cut and remained with the district. Some still work in the districts buildings more then 25 years after we graduated.

[SW_Mustang]

Yea...Those protests in Portland sure seem peaceful. Is firebomb a building really peaceful???

Protestors from those protests were arrested.

The folks protesting their constitutional right to haircut? Not so much.

[Wildcat Khan]

Protestors from those protests were arrested.

The folks protesting their constitutional right to haircut? Not so much.

And Oregon is upset about arresting the rioters. It is known here that there are 'professional rioters' that will travel through the Pacific Northwest and mix in with peaceful protests. A less controversial example is the WTO riots in the 90's where a lot of rioters had come up from Oregon and destroyed the message of many a peaceful protest. Local news interviewed those protesters and they were upset with the rioters and before the rioters showed up they were actually working with the police having gotten a legal permit who would keep traffic from going into the protest area.

[Columbuseer]

Are you saying the protestors being arrested are not breaking the law or are you saying they should be immune from arrest for breaking the law? Why does it matter if the van is unmarked? Are you saying that federal agents can only arrest people if they are riding in marked vans?

Boat, I love your Socratic method of asking questions in an attempt to get people to use reason and logic to justify their position, rather than echo media or political talking points. Wish more people would do it, rather than just respond with an ad hominem attack or attempt to pivot to some weak, unrelatated analogy. Reminded me of a Philosophy professor I met on a plane a few years back. I told her of the positive impact an Introduction to Logic course had on my life. She replied it is very challenging today, as she has to spend half the semester breaking the students of saying "I believe ..." and get them to actually use rules of deductive and inductive reasoning to support their position. She would mildly chastise them by saying,
"I am not interested in what you believe. I am interested in what you THINK!" IMHO, it is an unfortunate result of the world of tweets.

[Turbonium]

Are you saying the protestors being arrested are not breaking the law or are you saying they should be immune from arrest for breaking the law? Why does it matter if the van is unmarked? Are you saying that federal agents can only arrest people if they are riding in marked vans?

If you aren't identifying yourself and not following the law when arresting someone then yeah, it's a problem. Individuals being detained without being told by who or what for doesn't really sound like what we hope this country stands for, does it? When you are aiming non-lethal weapons directly at someone rather than following proper training then yeah, that's also a problem. Federal agents were sent there for one reason and that is to attempt to save face for Trump, far too late for that. They are not wanted there are honestly not even needed. No assistance was asked for from the state.

***Before anyone else jumps in here, I also had issues with several of Obama's policies at the time he was president. I feel like this is now a disclaimer that must be made before one is dismissed as being left or right. I'm neither.***

[Turbonium]

And Oregon is upset about arresting the rioters. It is known here that there are 'professional rioters' that will travel through the Pacific Northwest and mix in with peaceful protests. A less controversial example is the WTO riots in the 90's where a lot of rioters had come up from Oregon and destroyed the message of many a peaceful protest. Local news interviewed those protesters and they were upset with the rioters and before the rioters showed up they were actually working with the police having gotten a legal permit who would keep traffic from going into the protest area.

It seems some want to blame all of the protesters for a few rioters but then turn around and not blame all of the police for the few bad cops whom are murdering citizens. Sigh.

[SW_Mustang]

And Oregon is upset about arresting the rioters. It is known here that there are 'professional rioters' that will travel through the Pacific Northwest and mix in with peaceful protests. A less controversial example is the WTO riots in the 90's where a lot of rioters had come up from Oregon and destroyed the message of many a peaceful protest. Local news interviewed those protesters and they were upset with the rioters and before the rioters showed up they were actually working with the police having gotten a legal permit who would keep traffic from going into the protest area.

Oregon is also the same state that got upset when they were forced to pump their own gas.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/institu.../#23856a6e600e

We believed the same thing in Minnesota. We're "too nice" to burn our own city. Even the Governor echoed the same sentiments on TV. I maintained the opposite - we are a very violent state with a very dark history, and we absolutely have the capability for that kind of destruction and believing otherwise was ludicrous. The morning after the Governor's comments, MPD/SPPD released the arrest records - and I really enjoyed hearing the Governor back track on his previous statements.

Oregon is a completely different place, so maybe "professional rioters" exist - but given the infrequency of the event, I doubt they are "professional" in the same sense a baseball player is. My guess is if anything like that does exist, they are just a bunch of college kids and criminals looking to break things. Simple as that. "Agent Provocateurs" are far more interesting and probable - but people don't like discussing the idea that police departments were the source of the damage. It kinda hurts their narratives.