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From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

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  • #16
    Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

    WIAC thoughts on UST.

    https://www.jsonline.com/story/sport...as/1213577001/

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    • #17
      Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

      Originally posted by laker View Post
      I'd bet the DII school was Upper Iowa
      Maybe the Tommies should look into joining the American Rivers conference

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      • #18
        Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

        Article by a former UST football player:

        https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...EfFQBTCsY/edit

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        • #19
          Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

          I think we have to understand D3 athletics a little bit to see what is going on here. D3 is mostly private universities and colleges. Those schools can range from a few hundred enrollment to a few thousand at most. The schools in the conference that St. Thomas have total enrollments of 2000-2500 - pretty typical for D3. St. Thomas has a total enrollment of around 10,000. That enrollment for a private school is massive. They are playing in a D3 sandbox with D1 dollars, which in turn gives the school a grossly unfair competitive advantage. And while I understand that D3 is technically non-athletic scholarship, functionally it is very much athletic scholarship, cloaked in all kinds of other rewards, scholarships, and grants.

          While the analogy doesn't quite fit, imagine the University of Missouri opting to join the MIAA. How many out of 100 conference championships do you think they would win as the flagship university for the state of Missouri? Obviously they would have no business being in the MIAA, and University of St. Thomas has no business being in D3 or D2 for that matter. They have plenty of freight to play FCS at a minimum and likely STILL dominate. They need to find a sandbox that they aren't too big for. Not that big a deal.
          Last edited by Herb Street; 05-27-2019, 08:18 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

            Originally posted by Herb Street View Post
            I think we have to understand D3 athletics a little bit to see what is going on here. D3 is mostly private universities and colleges. Those schools can range from a few hundred enrollment to a few thousand at most. My understanding is that U. of St. Thomas has an enrollment of over 10,000. That enrollment for a private school is massive. They are playing in a D3 sandbox with D1 dollars, which in turn gives the school a grossly unfair competitive advantage. And while I understand that D3 is technically non-athletic scholarship, functionally it is very much athletic scholarship, cloaked in all kinds of other rewards, scholarships, and grants.

            While the analogy doesn't quite fit, imagine the University of Missouri opting to join the MIAA. How many out of 100 conference championships do you think they would win as the flagship university for the state of Missouri? Obviously they would have no business being in the MIAA, and University of St. Thomas has no business being in D3 or D2 for that matter. They have plenty of freight to play FCS at a minimum and likely STILL dominate. They need to find a sandbox that they aren't too big for. Not that big a deal.
            6,000 enrollment. They are about the size of most MIAA/LSC schools.

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            • #21
              Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

              Originally posted by Brandon View Post
              6,000 enrollment. They are about the size of most MIAA/LSC schools.
              actually that is just undergraduate. Total is just under 10K. Comparing an enrollment number from a private school to a public school isn't apples to apples in terms of athletic budgets. Private schools can (and do) absolutely SOAK their students with athletic fees that public schools cannot.

              Abilene Christian is reportedly soaking its enrollment of 5,200 to the tune of around $3,000 per student, generating over $15 million a year. Their tuition is quite comparable to St. Thomas.

              So let's say St. Thomas is "only" collecting $2,000 from each of its 6200 students, they are generating north of $12 million annually. I'm guessing it's closer to $15M.

              Those 2,000 enrollment schools can't hang.

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              • #22
                Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                Originally posted by Herb Street View Post
                actually that is just undergraduate. Total is just under 10K. Comparing an enrollment number from a private school to a public school isn't apples to apples in terms of athletic budgets. Private schools can (and do) absolutely SOAK their students with athletic fees that public schools cannot.

                Abilene Christian is reportedly soaking its enrollment of 5,200 to the tune of around $3,000 per student, generating over $15 million a year. Their tuition is quite comparable to St. Thomas.

                So let's say St. Thomas is "only" collecting $2,000 from each of its 6200 students, they are generating north of $12 million annually. I'm guessing it's closer to $15M.

                Those 2,000 enrollment schools can't hang.
                While the total enrollment is higher than 6,000, undergraduate enrollment is the standard used to describe enrollment (5,938) for comparison purposes. They currently have a $4.8 million budget. Student fees are included in that budget. Of course, they could raise fees to generate income.

                Some interesting numbers searching for the average fees for athletics:

                Florida State: $237
                Virginia: $657 ($13.2 million per year)
                Rutgers: $326 ($10.3 million)
                Auburn: $192

                "Some smaller schools charge more than $2,000 per year in athletic fees, Smith found."

                https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...=.5af01e57db15

                Alabama and Missouri have eliminated student fees. Kansas State is phasing them out by 2020.

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                • #23

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                  • #24
                    Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                    That is discriminatory

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                    • #25
                      Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                      Originally posted by 4nick8 View Post
                      That is discriminatory
                      welcome to the real world, where we fight discrimination based on race and gender, by discriminating based on race and gender.

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                      • #26
                        Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                        They should go D2. D3 to D2 is a big jump; there's no way they immediately jump FCS to the tune of 63 scholarships, 10K-20K stadiums, and match up. Sure, they might be able to go 3-9 and beat some bottom feeders, who wants that? They should try and get in the Northern Sun, be a strong D2 program and go from there.

                        People have no idea the big jump of D3 to D2. The D2 men's national 100 meter championships was just won by a junior from Tiffin in 10.1 seconds -- that time wins the Big 10 meet by nearly a second.

                        D3 hoops is a lot of slow guys shooting jumpers; D2 hoops is a lot of guys dunking out. Big difference.
                        Last edited by tsull; 05-29-2019, 11:55 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                          Originally posted by tsull View Post
                          D3 hoops is a lot of slow guys shooting jumpers
                          This is your best quote ever....although I prefer the older less PC version. ;)

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                          • #28
                            Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                            Originally posted by Brandon View Post
                            This is your best quote ever....although I prefer the older less PC version. ;)
                            Yes, my older/less PC version was perhaps better. With apologies to Whitman and Whitworth in the Northwest, who have pretty good D3 teams that are fairly athletic ... they'd still get killed in D2.

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                            • #29
                              Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                              Originally posted by tsull View Post
                              They should go D2. D3 to D2 is a big jump; there's no way they immediately jump FCS to the tune of 63 scholarships, 10K-20K stadiums, and match up. Sure, they might be able to go 3-9 and beat some bottom feeders, who wants that? They should try and get in the Northern Sun, be a strong D2 program and go from there.

                              People have no idea the big jump of D3 to D2. The D2 men's national 100 meter championships was just won by a junior from Tiffin in 10.1 seconds -- that time wins the Big 10 meet by nearly a second.

                              D3 hoops is a lot of slow guys shooting jumpers; D2 hoops is a lot of guys dunking out. Big difference.
                              St Thomas would be able compete right away in basketball in D2 as they commonly get borderline D1 guys to commit there. They occasionally get the D1 transfer as well. Football would take a couple of years.

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                              • #30
                                Re: From D3: U. of St. Thomas kicked out of their league

                                Do they fit in the northern sun?

                                Augustana who wins at everything but football at a national level is going D1 - Softball just won the title...

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