Moving Day 2025

[laker]

Ohio has 10. 8 FBS and 2 FCS. Although you would be hard pressed to find anybody that knows Dayton has a football team, except maybe Jon Gruden. Surprisingly though, he isn't the most famous coach who played for the University of Dayton. That honor goes to Chuck Noll.

I watched Iowa State defeat Dayton in the fall of 1977 in Jack Trice stadium. It was quite a close game and the locals were not happy.

[Bballfan]

Pennsylvania is the inverse with 11- 3 FBS and 8 FCS. That's in addition to 16 D2 and 23 D3 programs.

I am curious how many of those FCS programs will survive. I don't know how schools like Mercyhurst, Robert Morris, etc. can justify football. I don't even know how Mercyhurst can justify being D1!

[njmav1]

I am curious how many of those FCS programs will survive. I don't know how schools like Mercyhurst, Robert Morris, etc. can justify football. I don't even know how Mercyhurst can justify being D1!

Regardless of how you feel, all of these FCS programs are doing just fine. Mercyhurst and Robert Morris are where they want to be and will continue to do so. They might not challenge for conference titles, but they don't have to. And I'm okay with that.

[crixus]

Regardless of how you feel, all of these FCS programs are doing just fine. Mercyhurst and Robert Morris are where they want to be and will continue to do so. They might not challenge for conference titles, but they don't have to. And I'm okay with that.

Me too! Football fans loving their alma mater's and/or home town teams. I've never lived in Pennsylvania but it seems like college football heaven to me. :)

[sportsvine]

Regardless of how you feel, all of these FCS programs are doing just fine. Mercyhurst and Robert Morris are where they want to be and will continue to do so. They might not challenge for conference titles, but they don't have to. And I'm okay with that.

I feel, that if any program fails to compete for a conference title at least once every 7 or 8 years (and by compete, not necessarily win, but at least be in the running as the season progresses), then they are probably classified too high.

[ctrabs74]

Ohio has 10. 8 FBS and 2 FCS. Although you would be hard pressed to find anybody that knows Dayton has a football team, except maybe Jon Gruden. Surprisingly though, he isn't the most famous coach who played for the University of Dayton. That honor goes to Chuck Noll.

Texas has y'all beat with 23 D1 football programs: 13 FBS schools and 10 FCS schools.

FBS: UT-Austin, UT-San Antonio (UTSA), UT-El Paso (UTEP), Texas Tech, Houston, Baylor, TCU, SMU, Texas State, N-I-L aTm (aka Texas A&M-College Station), Rice, Sam Houston State and North Texas (the last three are more "technically we're FBS, but we have a Southland mentality, especially Rice)
FCS: Texas Southern, Prairie View, UT-Rio Grande Valley, Stephen F Austin, Lamar, Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian, East Texas A&M (the artists formerly known as Texas A&M-Commerce), Tarleton State, Houston Christian

[Bballfan]

Well I know Texas beats everyone in the number of football teams :)

Even some of their high schools have better facilities than some college programs.

[Bballfan]

Regardless of how you feel, all of these FCS programs are doing just fine. Mercyhurst and Robert Morris are where they want to be and will continue to do so. They might not challenge for conference titles, but they don't have to. And I'm okay with that.

It is my opinion. Mercyhurst couldn't compete at the D2 level. The only reason they moved to D1 was a money grab. But as Saint Francis found out, it isn't so easy.

[bigmrg74]

It is my opinion. Mercyhurst couldn't compete at the D2 level. The only reason they moved to D1 was a money grab. But as Saint Francis found out, it isn't so easy.

Yeah, but roughly just to fund all of your D1 programs you're looking at spending at least another 5 million a year on the athletic department alone, minimum, just to say that you're a D1. Probably another 10 million a year just to try to be competitive.

[zimmy21]

I feel, that if any program fails to compete for a conference title at least once every 7 or 8 years (and by compete, not necessarily win, but at least be in the running as the season progresses), then they are probably classified too high.

That's a lot of teams at all levels that qualify for your statement. The NSIC would be down to like 5 teams if they were only schools that compete for Conferences Championships in football. Lol

[SW_Mustang]

I'm going to get a lot of heat for this opinion, but I think the divisional structure should serve to put like-institutions together competitively. Nobody is advocating for IFL teams to join the NFL because that waters down the product, but suggesting Mercyhurst shouldn't be DI for the same reason is not a kosher opinion. I digress.

Obviously, that's easier said than done with 24 sports at 1100 institutions across an entire continent. Pro-rel is most ideal, but not feasible thanks to geography. Enrollment is too arbitrary of a metric for me - but here's kind of how I would do it:

-DI = top 150 schools (100 is ideal to maintain integrity, but I'll allow for some variation)
-Add a fourth regional division, worst 350 schools are put into 4-5 regional divisions to compete for trophies. Hopefully gives them something to play for while reducing their costs.
-Split the remaining 600 schools between DII and DIII, based on rank.
-Sports that have less than 25 percent participation at institutions across the entire NCAA can decide how to divide themselves (i.e. hockey).
-I'd also have some process for upward mobility, but it would be based purely on competitive viability and not "feelings" like it is now. Want to move up? Better start winnin'.

My dream, and this is what irks people, is to restore the integrity of competition, especially at the DI level. No more FCS, "mid-major" basketball, we can finally make the NCAA basketball tournament watchable again... etc. None of this goofy stuff we've implemented to appease the lowest common denominator, you're placed where you can realistically compete.

Obviously this is just a quick thought experiment and not a fully fleshed out idea that accounts for all problems and variables, but hopefully is a start to get folks thinking about how to restore integrity to Division I athletics.

[njmav1]

I'm going to get a lot of heat for this opinion, but I think the divisional structure should serve to put like-institutions together competitively. Nobody is advocating for IFL teams to join the NFL because that waters down the product, but suggesting Mercyhurst shouldn't be DI for the same reason is not a kosher opinion. I digress.

Obviously, that's easier said than done with 24 sports at 1100 institutions across an entire continent. Pro-rel is most ideal, but not feasible thanks to geography. Enrollment is too arbitrary of a metric for me - but here's kind of how I would do it:

-DI = top 150 schools (100 is ideal to maintain integrity, but I'll allow for some variation)
-Add a fourth regional division, worst 350 schools are put into 4-5 regional divisions to compete for trophies. Hopefully gives them something to play for while reducing their costs.
-Split the remaining 600 schools between DII and DIII, based on rank.
-Sports that have less than 25 percent participation at institutions across the entire NCAA can decide how to divide themselves (i.e. hockey).
-I'd also have some process for upward mobility, but it would be based purely on competitive viability and not "feelings" like it is now. Want to move up? Better start winnin'.

My dream, and this is what irks people, is to restore the integrity of competition, especially at the DI level. No more FCS, "mid-major" basketball, we can finally make the NCAA basketball tournament watchable again... etc. None of this goofy stuff we've implemented to appease the lowest common denominator, you're placed where you can realistically compete.

Obviously this is just a quick thought experiment and not a fully fleshed out idea that accounts for all problems and variables, but hopefully is a start to get folks thinking about how to restore integrity to Division I athletics.

You have to define what you mean by "like institutions" and "integrity of competition"

[zimmy21]

I'm going to get a lot of heat for this opinion, but I think the divisional structure should serve to put like-institutions together competitively. Nobody is advocating for IFL teams to join the NFL because that waters down the product, but suggesting Mercyhurst shouldn't be DI for the same reason is not a kosher opinion. I digress.

Obviously, that's easier said than done with 24 sports at 1100 institutions across an entire continent. Pro-rel is most ideal, but not feasible thanks to geography. Enrollment is too arbitrary of a metric for me - but here's kind of how I would do it:

-DI = top 150 schools (100 is ideal to maintain integrity, but I'll allow for some variation)
-Add a fourth regional division, worst 350 schools are put into 4-5 regional divisions to compete for trophies. Hopefully gives them something to play for while reducing their costs.
-Split the remaining 600 schools between DII and DIII, based on rank.
-Sports that have less than 25 percent participation at institutions across the entire NCAA can decide how to divide themselves (i.e. hockey).
-I'd also have some process for upward mobility, but it would be based purely on competitive viability and not "feelings" like it is now. Want to move up? Better start winnin'.

My dream, and this is what irks people, is to restore the integrity of competition, especially at the DI level. No more FCS, "mid-major" basketball, we can finally make the NCAA basketball tournament watchable again... etc. None of this goofy stuff we've implemented to appease the lowest common denominator, you're placed where you can realistically compete.

Obviously this is just a quick thought experiment and not a fully fleshed out idea that accounts for all problems and variables, but hopefully is a start to get folks thinking about how to restore integrity to Division I athletics.

1. Explain "top" school - too broad of a term. Most Power 5 schools aren't competing for championships but they will never be asked to move down simply because they have the money...but money can not simply be the answer.

2. This seems fine, but it's easy for me to say

3. Again, how would you rank athletic programs? Most D2/D3 schools aren't flying all over the country to have OOC games making comparing these schools challenging.

4. Are you saying for example a Hockey committee would determine status for teams?

5. Winning what? Only National Championships? Conference Championships? How many? Across all sports or does one in cross country qualify you for D1 now?


I support Pro/Rel but understand that it is a pipe dream. Maybe it would work better on an individual sport basis, but that would go over like a fart in the wind.

[SW_Mustang]

You have to define what you mean by "like institutions" and "integrity of competition"

To be fair to myself here - this isn't a doctoral thesis and no answer I can provide will be satisfactory, there will be a lot of pinholes that can be poked in it. I also acknowledge there isn't a perfect way to do this, but to answer your question with my opinion:

I think "DI" should be reserved for large state flagship institutions with large endowments, and large research private schools. The resources they're afforded tend to make them the most competitive, at least among the sports I follow.

As far as "competitive integrity" - I think most would agree with me that it would be ridiculous to allow the Duluth Harbor Monsters to compete for a Lombardi Trophy. There's zero integrity in allowing them into the NFL. Yet, we allow Mercyhurst to compete for the same trophies as Ohio State (aside from football which... yeah... argh). It's just as ridiculous, to me anyway.

It's like everyone is okay with high school and professional ranks being stratified based on whatever criteria they have, but we meet in the middle in college and suddenly we can't tell USC-Upstate to kick rocks.

[SW_Mustang]

1. Explain "top" school - too broad of a term. Most Power 5 schools aren't competing for championships but they will never be asked to move down simply because they have the money...but money can not simply be the answer.

2. This seems fine, but it's easy for me to say

3. Again, how would you rank athletic programs? Most D2/D3 schools aren't flying all over the country to have OOC games making comparing these schools challenging.

4. Are you saying for example a Hockey committee would determine status for teams?

5. Winning what? Only National Championships? Conference Championships? How many? Across all sports or does one in cross country qualify you for D1 now?


I support Pro/Rel but understand that it is a pipe dream. Maybe it would work better on an individual sport basis, but that would go over like a fart in the wind.

I'll respond to this in full when I get home later tonight - not ignoring you, just have to hit the road. I'll edit this post with a full response.

Though I will say, I did mention this is just a one-person thought experiment and not an actual concrete plan that I'm submitting to the NCAA, so I fully admit it's not perfect or well-defined in all aspects.