Malone Drops Football -Immediately

[UFOILERFAN]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

I'm sure the "powers that be" considered all the financials, weighed all the pros and cons and then did what they had already decided to do.

[BlueBlood]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

In addition, the number you quoted would include scholarships.

Good point.

I have no doubt that eliminating football is actually costing money instead of saving money. They needed a quick fix and they convinced themselves that they found it. It goes against pretty established grow-school-via-sports math.

I live in Tampa - here St. Leo is talking about adding football. The reasons cited: to boost enrollment and revenue via tuition/room/board of additional students.

[Fightingscot82]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

So I just checked out what Malone reports to the federal Department of Education. The "sticker price" for the total cost of attendance is $43,400 but the average net cost (what the average student actually pays) is $20,917. That's below average and an average discount of over 51%. You can't survive that way. Their annual operating budget is also just $28.8 million. That's not a huge budget and almost 40% of their students are there for athletics...so that's a significant portion that tend to be fickle students.

So 118 participants (per Brandon) x the $20,917 average net tuition comes to $2,468,206. That's a huge chunk of change and almost 10% of the university's budget. Based on what others have said here - I don't believe Malone was committed to Division II football. A lot of schools like the idea of football but the costs are increasing. The costs of running universities are increasing. We're unfortunately going to see more of this.

[BlueBlood]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

It will be interesting to see if they add lacrosse, wrestling, or some other less expensive sport to make up for lost students.

[Redwing]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

So I just checked out what Malone reports to the federal Department of Education. The "sticker price" for the total cost of attendance is $43,400 but the average net cost (what the average student actually pays) is $20,917. That's below average and an average discount of over 51%. You can't survive that way. Their annual operating budget is also just $28.8 million. That's not a huge budget and almost 40% of their students are there for athletics...so that's a significant portion that tend to be fickle students.

If you're implying what I think you might be, you might want to look into the academics side a bit. From your post, you should be surprised.... unless I don't get a newer meaning of fickle.:confused:

[Tech Boys]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

It will be interesting to see if they add lacrosse, wrestling, or some other less expensive sport to make up for lost students.

Lacrosse and wrestling would be the perfect teams to add. Both are conference sports. Men's lacrosse has a D2 average roster size of 36 on 10.8 max scholarships and wrestling has a D2 average roster size of 33 on 9 max scholarships. These teams would retain roughly 70% of male athletes lost with dropping football and the total max scholarships is 55% of football. And, by playing on campus they don't have facility rent and fuel costs like they did for games at Hall of Fame Stadium.

In the original announcement of Pioneer Park they said the new field would be used for lacrosse.

When completed, Pioneer Park will provide three new fields with lights. Two of the fields will be used for soccer, lacrosse, softball, and football as well as intramurals, club sports, and recreational activities.

After reading that quote again, it sounds as if they had planned on bringing football on campus which might have increased their revenue.

[Herb Street]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

You are the only one that seems to get it.

If you have 100 students, and 25 are on full rides, that equals a "profit" of 50 students.

Using the numbers the numbers that Fightingscot82 used, that's $1.3 million in revenue that the school is losing. What were the costs SOLELY associated with the program? Coaches' salaries/travel/meals/equipment/recruiting/stadium rental?

Schools where the athletes are counting as a meaningful percentage of enrollment really need to stick with D3. The D3 model fits them much better. The D3 athlete is paying freight just like everyone else, so that eliminates a big chunk of expense.

The "profit" of 50 extra students isn't really profit - it's gross revenues. The net revenues are going to be significantly less than that. In fact, there often isn't any "net" revenue, which is why colleges keep jacking up tuition.

I have never understood the value proposition of D2 athletic programs. It seems to combine all of the disadvantages of D1 and D3 and none of the benefits. You shell out huge amounts for athletic scholarships AND you still play in relative obscurity. If you are going to play in obscurity, why not do that in D3? I mean once you get below D1, does the average mall shopper know the difference? And if you are committed to the concept of athletic scholarships, why not just bump your budget a few million more and go D1 and actually get some benefit from the whole thing? ( like ACU, getting a bid to the NCAA tournament and being on national network TV in primetime).

I am a fan of all of college sports, big schools and small, so it makes me no diff what division you're in. But the D2 deal has always seemed like the worst of both worlds.

[Brandon]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

Schools where the athletes are counting as a meaningful percentage of enrollment really need to stick with D3. The D3 model fits them much better. The D3 athlete is paying freight just like everyone else, so that eliminates a big chunk of expense.

The "profit" of 50 extra students isn't really profit - it's gross revenues. The net revenues are going to be significantly less than that. In fact, there often isn't any "net" revenue, which is why colleges keep jacking up tuition.

I have never understood the value proposition of D2 athletic programs. It seems to combine all of the disadvantages of D1 and D3 and none of the benefits. You shell out huge amounts for athletic scholarships AND you still play in relative obscurity. If you are going to play in obscurity, why not do that in D3? I mean once you get below D1, does the average mall shopper know the difference? And if you are committed to the concept of athletic scholarships, why not just bump your budget a few million more and go D1 and actually get some benefit from the whole thing? ( like ACU, getting a bid to the NCAA tournament and being on national network TV in primetime).

I am a fan of all of college sports, big schools and small, so it makes me no diff what division you're in. But the D2 deal has always seemed like the worst of both worlds.

I actually agree with your first point.

I disagree with your second point. Yes, you can subtract a meal plan and the labor involved with maintaining a dorm (or the off-campus equivalent expenses), but a professor is paid the same whether there are 18 in a class or 22 in a class. I could do on.

I realize in your world view that the Big 5 or D3 are the only models that make sense. That's fine. But scholarships are a way for many schools to increase student diversity and sometimes give certain kids an opportunity that might otherwise might not be financially available.

It's more than "a few million more" to increase the budget to compete in Division I. ACU got beat down by Kentucky. That's fine. I obviously want their football team to succeed so I have no ill will toward them. But because of the nature of the game not that many people outside of Kentucky and Texas will see games like that unless cinderella happens to pull the upset. If that's worth $10 million more per year, that's cool too.

I am for doing all we can to help college athletes. I want them to get every dime they can. Yes, may will choose to play for free and that's great too. But if we can get them some help, even if they aren't the end of the bell curve in terms of talent, I'm for it.

[Herb Street]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

I actually agree with your first point.

I disagree with your second point. Yes, you can subtract a meal plan and the labor involved with maintaining a dorm (or the off-campus equivalent expenses), but a professor is paid the same whether there are 18 in a class or 22 in a class. I could do on.

I realize in your world view that the Big 5 or D3 are the only models that make sense. That's fine. But scholarships are a way for many schools to increase student diversity and sometimes give certain kids an opportunity that might otherwise might not be financially available.

It's more than "a few million more" to increase the budget to compete in Division I. ACU got beat down by Kentucky. That's fine. I obviously want their football team to succeed so I have no ill will toward them. But because of the nature of the game not that many people outside of Kentucky and Texas will see games like that unless cinderella happens to pull the upset. If that's worth $10 million more per year, that's cool too.

I am for doing all we can to help college athletes. I want them to get every dime they can. Yes, may will choose to play for free and that's great too. But if we can get them some help, even if they aren't the end of the bell curve in terms of talent, I'm for it.

[chapmaja]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

If your tuition, room, board, and supplies has no wiggle room for error/ unexpected cost, a football program can bankrupt and close s school...

The costs of recruitment, up keep, equipment, supplies, electric, facilities, travel, coaches, trainer, weight room, etc can easily over run a school...

The old days when football brought people to campus as students and fans are over....

You are aware that more schools than ever are running football programs correct. Schools that have never had football are adding the sport at a rate of 4 to 5 schools per year and only a few schools are dropping the sport.

The idea that football doesn't bring people to campus is also false. One of my assignments for my Master's degree class in Sports Management is covering this very topic. There are several examples of a schools enrollment significantly increasing when the school begins a football program. The issue is the definition of significant increase. Adding 100 student athletes to a school that has 20,000 students isn't going to be a significant increase. Adding 100 students to a 1,000 student enrollment is a major impact.

[ESU Warrior]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

You are aware that more schools than ever are running football programs correct. Schools that have never had football are adding the sport at a rate of 4 to 5 schools per year and only a few schools are dropping the sport.

The idea that football doesn't bring people to campus is also false. One of my assignments for my Master's degree class in Sports Management is covering this very topic. There are several examples of a schools enrollment significantly increasing when the school begins a football program. The issue is the definition of significant increase. Adding 100 student athletes to a school that has 20,000 students isn't going to be a significant increase. Adding 100 students to a 1,000 student enrollment is a major impact.

You start football you bring in 100 boys. I bet 30-40% of those brings also bring their girlfriends to the campus as well. maybe 10-20% of those boys bring a close friend.

Football can boost enrollment significantly at a small school. Yes it is costly, but once you have everything in place, it can maintained.

[Tha Champ]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

I'm sure there has to be some benifits, these schools aren't going to add football because it's fun, there trying to make a buck or two...

[chapmaja]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

You start football you bring in 100 boys. I bet 30-40% of those brings also bring their girlfriends to the campus as well. maybe 10-20% of those boys bring a close friend.

Football can boost enrollment significantly at a small school. Yes it is costly, but once you have everything in place, it can maintained.

This is the article my sports management class had to read.

http://athleticmanagement.com/2010/0...r_it/index.php

While this is a D3 school, not a D2 school, the situation is similar. The results for the school have been a substantial increase in enrollment from when the decision was made until today.

This is a program that was shuttered in part due to a tragic accident in 1991. A running back suffered a closed head injury during a game and spent over two years in a coma before passing away. The season he was injured was the last season of football at Pacific University for roughly 20 years. Among the supporters of the decision to bring back the program were the parents of the young man who died as a result of the injury during a game.

[chapmaja]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

I actually agree with your first point.

I disagree with your second point. Yes, you can subtract a meal plan and the labor involved with maintaining a dorm (or the off-campus equivalent expenses), but a professor is paid the same whether there are 18 in a class or 22 in a class. I could do on.

I realize in your world view that the Big 5 or D3 are the only models that make sense. That's fine. But scholarships are a way for many schools to increase student diversity and sometimes give certain kids an opportunity that might otherwise might not be financially available.

It's more than "a few million more" to increase the budget to compete in Division I. ACU got beat down by Kentucky. That's fine. I obviously want their football team to succeed so I have no ill will toward them. But because of the nature of the game not that many people outside of Kentucky and Texas will see games like that unless cinderella happens to pull the upset. If that's worth $10 million more per year, that's cool too.

I am for doing all we can to help college athletes. I want them to get every dime they can. Yes, may will choose to play for free and that's great too. But if we can get them some help, even if they aren't the end of the bell curve in terms of talent, I'm for it.

The model for how schools get money from the NCAA tourney is complicated. Let's just say the ACU Kentucky game does nothing for ACU financially but it may get them some exposure due to the coverage of the game on a national broadcast.

No teams get any revenue from the NCAA basketball tourney. That money gets distributed through the conferences. A basic rundown of how the NCAA pays conferences is as follows.

Each game in the NCAA tourney earns a conference 1 unit with two exceptions. No units are earned for the national title game, and no units are earned for a conference's automatic qualifier. This is why ACU's trip to the tourney results in no revenue. The Kentucky game was ACU's first game.

After the tourney ends, the NCAA calculates how many units each conference earned and adds them to the units earned by conference members of the previous 5 seasons. Once the total number of payable units is determined it is multiplied by the per unit fee, which is roughly $275,000. This means a conference will earn $275,000 for each year for 6 years per unit. After the payout is determined the conference receives the money. A portion of this money is used to operate the conference while the majority goes to the conference member institutions.

This is why upsets in the tourney (or conference tourney can be so important). For example, Gonzaga's loss to St. Mary's in the WCC tourney actually helped the WCC in terms of units this year. St. Mary's lost in the first round, so they got zero units. Since Gonzaga was an at-large team, they get a unit for each game they play in the tourney. They will play at least 4 games, so they will earn the conference 4 units. Had St. Mary's not upset them in the conference tourney St. Mary's likely doesn't get into the tourney and Gonzaga would be at only 3 units (since the first game would have been as an automatic qualifier).

The best example of how important an upset is comes from last season's tourney. When UMBC upset Virginia, not only did they make history, they earned the America East Conference a nice chunk of $$$$$. Had the game gone as expected the AEC would have had their automatic qualifier go out in round 1, so the conference would earn 0 units. When UMBC upset Virginia it meant UMBC's second round game earned the conference a unit. That means roughly $275,000 per year to the conference for the last year, plus the next 5 years.

There is a strange twist to this as well. That comes from the 16 vs 16 First Four Games. The loser of that game earns their conference no units. If your team wins that game, your 1 vs 16 game is your second game, meaning your conference earns 1 unit. This means in some ways it is better to be relegated to a lower 4 seed in the tourney from a financial standpoint. If you play in that First Four, you have a shot to pick up a win and a nice financial deposit for your school.

None of these games reach the $10 million per year mark, but a lot of money can be made up in other areas. There is a substantial difference in money coming from the NCAA for D1 schools compared with D2 schools. The NCAA sends a lot of money to the schools based on things such as academic performance, scholarships offered, sports sponsored and other criteria. Additionally a lot of money is raised via sponsorship at the D1 level compared with the D2 level. A school contemplating the decision to move up compared what a single sponsor was paying. A similar schools in a similar demographic area made the move from D2 to D1. When it did, the sponsorship value of this sponsor increased from $125K to $450K per year. That is a lot of sponsorship money that comes from D1 athletics. Also add in the ability to play "guarantee games" and your school can make a lot of money. ACU over the past three seasons have played at Air Force, at Colorado State, at New Mexico, and at Baylor. All of these games likely came with a substantial payment. ACU has two such games in 2019, with games at North Texas and at Mississippi St. 2020 sees them play at Texas A&M. The most famous (and for me heartbreaking) guarantee game ever was the App State over Michigan game. Michigan paid App St $1 million to come in an play at Michigan Stadium. Nobody expected App State to do what they did. App State walked off that field with a large paycheck and instant fame. That instant fame was likely worth a lot more overall than the paycheck they got that day.

[chapmaja]

Re: Malone Drops Football -Immediately

There is one other interesting this to note about schools adding football. You don't see many Division 1 schools adding football. There is a reason for this. Adding a D1 football program likely means spending a lot of money on scholarships. A school wanting to run a competitive FCS program will need the full 64 scholarships, meaning that even if the school brings in 110 athletes for the team, the actual revenue is only from 46 student athletes. The same numbers but for a D2 school result in almost twice as many revenue producing students, while a D3 means nearly all of them produce revenue for the school.

61 schools have added football programs, or reinstated the program over the last decade. UAB was the most interesting case. They cut football and reinstated after 2 years.