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  • #31
    Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

    Before Cheyney stepped out of the PSAC, I said that when they did it would shine a light on some schools that were sort of hidden by the Cheyney's failures. Mansfield was one of those schools. The question I have is can you make Mansfield profitable (or at least have balanced books) by only stripping away all the administrative and perhaps athletic costs? If $6M/semester is the amount they are upside down, going to be difficult for them to go forward without major subsidies from which ever school(s) they are appended to. That's the reason I think it is more likely that they are attached to a more successful college like Bloom as opposed to another struggling college like Lock Haven.

    But at the end of the day, the legislature didn't do the PASSHE board any favors by giving them this 3 year window to "right the ship" while at the same forbidding them from making the changes that need to be made. Requiring the PASSHE to keep all the existing colleges open makes it very difficult for them to reach a solution that keeps the ship as a whole from sinking. On top of that you take the only two schools that are succeding and exempt them entirily from the process. Makes it an almost impossible task and certainly one that can't be completed in 3 short years.

    Pretty much. The answer would likely be to cut losses. But, when you have the political ramifications involved ... this is the plan. Too many schools and not enough students.

    They can likely save a lot of money doing this, however, That new school ... Slippery Rock University at Clarion will only need one president, etc.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

      LOL ... knew that was coming. haha.

      If you have a pulse and can pay the bill ... you're in.
      Hahahaha! Yep! Struggling schools that do that have garnered a lot of grief on this board with many, many near daily calls that they be closed IMMEDIATELY!!

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post


        Pretty much. The answer would likely be to cut losses. But, when you have the political ramifications involved ... this is the plan. Too many schools and not enough students.

        They can likely save a lot of money doing this, however, That new school ... Slippery Rock University at Clarion will only need one president, etc.
        There is still wiggle room although not very much. The legislature says all schools must remain open but it doesn't say at what size or form. The current PASSHE President has spoken about the need to offer education based on current needs. Last I checked, Pennsylvania doesn't have state sponsored Technical Colleges above the associate degree level. Perhaps that is a route. Nothing says that college has to have dormitories. Maybe shuttering and selling those at some schools and making them "commuter colleges" makes sense. Maybe you can make some specialized graduate colleges.

        I think there are really only two ways this turns out. Either there will be a drastically different PASSHE landscape that bears little resemblance to the current system beyond the school names or the board get's mired in politics, law suits and delay tactics by interest groups and unions and they largely acomplish nothing. Right now, i give the odds at 50/50.

        Comment


        • #34
          A couple friends are trustees at PASSHE schools on both sides of the state said this article confuses the merger talk. IUP and West Chester could absorb others but can't be absorbed themselves.

          Also, even though they have a much stronger graduate program, I wouldn't describe IUP as they were in the article. They've had a huge decline in undergraduate students and in certain graduate programs. The only PASSHE school in the west on solid ground is Slippery Rock but even they are beginning to worry about the future.

          Lock Haven and Mansfield sound like easy mergers. They're both smaller and both in the mountains. But they're also over 70 miles apart without the option for interstate. IUP and Slippery Rock are closer. The closest school to Lock Haven is actually Bloomsburg.

          My biggest complaint is that size is the metric of success. Size is meaningless and for the most part a negative factor in student success. For the students served by PASSHE, cost is the #1 driver of success. Money is the #1 reason students can't continue or graduate, and the lack of investment in PASSHE has created a tuition and debt load that drives prospective students away to choose other schools with perceived higher prestige at a slightly higher cost. To pull out my old metaphor, it's Toyota Avalon and the Lexus ES. The Avalon is basically the same car and in some cases better regarded, but for just $5,000 more you can drive a Lexus.

          Sorry that was long. Rant over.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
            A couple friends are trustees at PASSHE schools on both sides of the state said this article confuses the merger talk. IUP and West Chester could absorb others but can't be absorbed themselves.

            Also, even though they have a much stronger graduate program, I wouldn't describe IUP as they were in the article. They've had a huge decline in undergraduate students and in certain graduate programs. The only PASSHE school in the west on solid ground is Slippery Rock but even they are beginning to worry about the future.

            Lock Haven and Mansfield sound like easy mergers. They're both smaller and both in the mountains. But they're also over 70 miles apart without the option for interstate. IUP and Slippery Rock are closer. The closest school to Lock Haven is actually Bloomsburg.

            My biggest complaint is that size is the metric of success. Size is meaningless and for the most part a negative factor in student success. For the students served by PASSHE, cost is the #1 driver of success. Money is the #1 reason students can't continue or graduate, and the lack of investment in PASSHE has created a tuition and debt load that drives prospective students away to choose other schools with perceived higher prestige at a slightly higher cost. To pull out my old metaphor, it's Toyota Avalon and the Lexus ES. The Avalon is basically the same car and in some cases better regarded, but for just $5,000 more you can drive a Lexus.

            Sorry that was long. Rant over.
            Size is a poor metric of success. But decline in enrolement sustained over a long period of time is a pretty good on. I would hope the board stays away from merging failing schools. If you do that, you quite possibly end up with one bigger failing institution as opposed to two smaller ones. More effective to merge failing schools with more successful ones. Yea...this might drag the more successful program down but the hope is that they have a cushion that can cover supporting the failing campus.

            Comment


            • #36
              Does it say that multiple mergers are allowed or not ? A true consolidation would merge several campuses based on recent enrollment and IMO if this is meant as a true restructuring renaming the consolidated units to do away with past associations. 99.9% odds against either of these ideas but that's what wild speculation is for. Sooo....BORO, CLARION,SRU with 18155 ('19) enrollment becomes PA WESTERN UNIVERSITY. BLOOM, LHU, MANS with 13534 enrollment becomes PA NORTHERN UNIVERSITY. ESU, KUTZ with 12413 becomes PA EASTERN UNIVERSITY. MILL, SHIP with 13913 enrollment becomes PA SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY. WCU with 17691, IUP with 11581 and CAL with 6842 remain as is. CHEYNEY becomes a special focus campus renamed to connect with it's HBCU history. In the end 14 separate universities reduced to 8. Totally insane but if you're taking the time to do this why nibble around the edges.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by CALUPA69 View Post
                Does it say that multiple mergers are allowed or not ? A true consolidation would merge several campuses based on recent enrollment and IMO if this is meant as a true restructuring renaming the consolidated units to do away with past associations. 99.9% odds against either of these ideas but that's what wild speculation is for. Sooo....BORO, CLARION,SRU with 18155 ('19) enrollment becomes PA WESTERN UNIVERSITY. BLOOM, LHU, MANS with 13534 enrollment becomes PA NORTHERN UNIVERSITY. ESU, KUTZ with 12413 becomes PA EASTERN UNIVERSITY. MILL, SHIP with 13913 enrollment becomes PA SOUTHERN UNIVERSITY. WCU with 17691, IUP with 11581 and CAL with 6842 remain as is. CHEYNEY becomes a special focus campus renamed to connect with it's HBCU history. In the end 14 separate universities reduced to 8. Totally insane but if you're taking the time to do this why nibble around the edges.
                I don't think it's insane.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                  Last I checked, Pennsylvania doesn't have state sponsored Technical Colleges above the associate degree level. Perhaps that is a route.
                  I think Penn College fits that category. And it's very good.

                  Can technical programs be developed at the PASSHE schools? I would be open to that.



                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Bart View Post
                    Can you imagine getting merged with Mansfield after they needed $6 million to get through this semester? They would be a financial drag on any school they attached. I imagine weaker schools being merged with a stronger school, causing both to sink with the added dead weight.
                    I don't think that would be the burden of the absorbing school. Remember, it's a system. In fact, Greenstein seems to have invented the word "systemness."

                    Mansfield-Lock Haven merger makes the most sense. Contrary to what FS82 is saying about the geography, the geo-link there is much better than anything else in the system. Plus, it would keep it regional which in terms of its role in economic development is significant. They will leave the so-called "footprint" in Mansfield for entry-level and specialized courses and it will bolster LHU.

                    Also, it was mentioned in another post that LHU is a weak link. However, as you pointed out previously in yet a different post LHU is only 1 of 2 schools that saw an increase in deposits for the fall. Although they have lost student enrollment the past few years LHU is on excellent financial footing, which few of the schools can say.

                    Plus, LHU would be able to retain wrestling. Priorities.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

                      I think Penn College fits that category. And it's very good.

                      Can technical programs be developed at the PASSHE schools? I would be open to that.


                      It's curious to see it now but just prior to my arrival at CALIFORNIA STATE COLLEGE, it had changed from CAL ST TEACHERS COLLEGE with a specific purpose as with all 14 PASSHE schools of training staff for the Commonwealth's K-12 schools. At that time there where still remnants of the particular part of the K-12 curriculum that had been assigned which in the case of CSTC was INDUSTRIAL ARTS or SHOP as it was more commonly called. To my recollection IUP'S speciality was HOME ECONOMICS and SRU'S was PHYSICAL EDUCATION. That radical change away from the very clear mission to the very ephemeral one of LIBERAL ARTS is basically how we got to the point of needing another radical change. I don't know who would get which specialties but the era of the STATE RUN LA college, especially in PA which is covered with private LA schools, has come and the definition of a 21st-22nd century education needs to be laid out. Two things wrong with the stated process is it doesn't begin with that definition and it doesn't allow for the merciful end to institutions that should have come years, if not decades, ago.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                        Size is a poor metric of success. But decline in enrolement sustained over a long period of time is a pretty good on. I would hope the board stays away from merging failing schools. If you do that, you quite possibly end up with one bigger failing institution as opposed to two smaller ones. More effective to merge failing schools with more successful ones. Yea...this might drag the more successful program down but the hope is that they have a cushion that can cover supporting the failing campus.
                        Enrollment for regional public campuses is strongly correlated with the health of the population in its immediate proximity. In PA we've seen a tremendous decline in both the economy and population above I-80. Pricing themselves out of an education, a population questioning the value/ethics of university education, and population decline are to blame.

                        But some schools - Edinboro for one - has willingly brought on additional enrollment decline after significantly increasing their admissions standard. Edinboro's traditional new freshman cohorts have had the highest average GPA and SAT in PASSHE for the last two years. They're also trending toward a flat enrollment for the fall. So yeah, if you judge by the 2010 peak Edinboro looks like they're failing (they have to a degree) but some of it is residual based on big demographic shifts and internal quality controls.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by CALUPA69 View Post

                          It's curious to see it now but just prior to my arrival at CALIFORNIA STATE COLLEGE, it had changed from CAL ST TEACHERS COLLEGE with a specific purpose as with all 14 PASSHE schools of training staff for the Commonwealth's K-12 schools. At that time there where still remnants of the particular part of the K-12 curriculum that had been assigned which in the case of CSTC was INDUSTRIAL ARTS or SHOP as it was more commonly called. To my recollection IUP'S speciality was HOME ECONOMICS and SRU'S was PHYSICAL EDUCATION. That radical change away from the very clear mission to the very ephemeral one of LIBERAL ARTS is basically how we got to the point of needing another radical change. I don't know who would get which specialties but the era of the STATE RUN LA college, especially in PA which is covered with private LA schools, has come and the definition of a 21st-22nd century education needs to be laid out. Two things wrong with the stated process is it doesn't begin with that definition and it doesn't allow for the merciful end to institutions that should have come years, if not decades, ago.
                          I've been told several times that the perception of specializations for PASSHE schools were merely by different evolution and not intentional. In short, the schools developed some reputed programs before or in spite of others. Cal saw a need, developed a program before others, and that was it. Same for Edinboro with Art - it was never notarized on the state level. I've also never seen it written so its probably true to some degree.

                          Specialization wouldn't work because so much of each school's enrollment is based on proximity and geographical access. The majority of students are above age 21, commute from a permanent residence, and fully intend to enter the workforce in their greater community. That does leave some space for specialization (the needs of SWPA differ from SEPA for example) but new students more than a couple years outside of high school generally don't relocate for post-secondary school. Campus residency also peaked with overall enrollment right around the Great Recession.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post


                            Pretty much. The answer would likely be to cut losses. But, when you have the political ramifications involved ... this is the plan. Too many schools and not enough students.

                            They can likely save a lot of money doing this, however, That new school ... Slippery Rock University at Clarion will only need one president, etc.
                            Seems like a lot of work to save a $275,000 salary. The savings will be outsourcing or centralizing some administrative like budget and HR and support functions like grounds and housekeeping.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by CALUPA69 View Post

                              Makes sense to me. Hope the powers that be can come up with a more focused mission for CHEYNEY since it doesn't look like small liberal arts college is the answer. Even on the list of HBCU it holds a rather minor place versus the likes of HOWARD, HAMPTON, MOREHOUSE and TUSKEGEE.
                              Cheyney's longest issue is no real marketing identity. The only thing they hang their hat on is being the first HBCU where as other HBCU's have found catchy slogans, parlayed famous alumni and gotten hefty contributions from successful alumni to market their universities as great institutions using their past glory as well as current success to lure kids to come. Just look at their website in comparison to other HBCU's and you can see their not selling the university to prospective students.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                                Seems like a lot of work to save a $275,000 salary. The savings will be outsourcing or centralizing some administrative like budget and HR and support functions like grounds and housekeeping.
                                Right. That's why I said President's, etc. It would trickle down. Eliminate many positions. Add it all up and it becomes a savings.

                                They can trim a lot of fat. A lot.

                                Comment

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