PASSHE Institutions Merging

[Fightingscot82]

Those are interesting numbers and there is nothing wrong with open admissions. Leading state systems e.g. California, Texas, have had a relatively open admissions system for many decades, going all the way back to the baby boomer surge in public higher education in the '60's. Most of our schools have always had a relatively open admissions policy so it's not that much different. I will say that when I went to IUP way back when, they had a low acceptance rate for a public school, although they were able to finagle the numbers by excluding students accepted at the branch campuses and provisionally accepted students (Summer/Jans. in IUP lingo). But that is ancient history. For many years, WCU was also able to finagle their numbers, I believe, by excluding students from underperforming schools, etc. As I understand it, those types of loopholes have been closed when it comes to reporting.

In general, the difference above between Commonwealth's 97% and Ship and WCU's 88% isn't statistically significant. It's all open admissions, basically. SRU's # is interesting. If accurate, kudos to them for achieving that level of competitiveness in the process. There are other factors that can skew the results, e.g. number of part-time commuters who might legitimately not factor into the calculation.

Ultimately, I'm fine with the open admissions. I agree with what others have said regarding fulfilling the central educational mission of the system.

Yep you're spot on from start to finish. Nearly all statistics should have many symbols behind them. Nearly all only count traditional aged full time freshmen. It takes much effort to get a part time working parent through to graduation than a good traditional aged student from the upper middle class suburb.

There are respectable schools in D2 and in D1 that have the same admissions profile - or are open admission. But those schools get buried in many rankings that consider acceptance rate, something only weighted to favor the truly elite schools. Most of us know how difficult it is to get accepted to Penn State's main campus, but even they have a 58% acceptance rate.

[The P in IUP]

What (in the academic world) is the theory behind these GPA's soaring?

Is it as simple as school districts now frown upon giving out bad grades? A close friend of mine is a high school math teacher and he's pretty much told he's not allowed to fail anybody. Hell, they give attendance points (in high school) just to make sure everybody passes.

Grade inflation is because of a few factors

1)A lot of high schools that used run a grading scale of A= 100-93, B- 92-85, C-84-74 ect have moved to the 90A, 80B 70C model.

2) Back in the day schools were limited in the amount of AP course (bonus gpa points) they could offer/ students could actually take. Now with virtual options and travel kids can access more AP courses then in years past. Same things with college level/dual credit courses. Heck is some high schools are able to come to agreements that allow kids to earn their associates degree along with their high school diploma. Those courses typically carry the bonus gpa point that drives up the gpa.

3) Helicopter parents will make a teachers life miserable if little Johnny gets a B and Admin have so many other issues to deal with they aren’t providing the support to back up, so the teachers are just giving in. I’m in my late 30s now and growing up if my grades were bad my parents said it was my fault not the teachers, now a days it reversed and parents blame teachers over their kids.

4) On the other end due to ties to federal funding states in order to get their graduation rates up so schools are doing all sorts of crazy things to keep kids from failing which as others have mentioned giving a kid that has never turned anything a 50% then making them use a platform online for a few hours where they google the answers and get a passing grade.

There are other factors but those would be the main ones.

[iupgroundhog]

That should be the whole point of of state owned, state funded institutions of higher education.

It should be where people can go to get the education/training they need. It shouldn't cost a fortune.

Then we would no longer hear how Cletus Jr. in Emporia, PA has been left behind in this world by the big bad meanies along the 95 corridor.

He can go to college and learn something.

Emporia is in Kansas.

[IUPNation]

That number even seems low. If you can spell your name and your check clears ... right now that should be the only requirement.

That should be the whole point of of state owned, state funded institutions of higher education.

It should be where people can go to get the education/training they need. It shouldn't cost a fortune.

Then we would no longer hear how Cletus Jr. in Emporia, PA has been left behind in this world by the big bad meanies along the 95 corridor.

He can go to college and learn something.

[iupgroundhog]

A regional public should indeed have higher acceptance rates. Admissions is a mess right now because we've thrown out the reliability of SAT/ACT but GPAs are so inflated. There are far more students graduating with GPAs above 3.0 than before that its hard to not accept more. But we're stuck with some harsh realities: we're in the bottom half of the higher ed hierarchy, we generally don't offer programs that attract or require the top students, we don't have financial aid to throw at the top students, and we're in a region with evaporating high school classes.

Commonwealth: 97%
Kutztown: 96%
East Stroudsburg: 94%
PennWest: 94%
Indiana: 92%
Millersville: 92%
Shippensburg: 88%
West Chester: 88%
Slippery Rock: 74%

Cheyney is open enrollment with proof of high school completion and submission of FAFSA.

Source: US Department of Education data warehouse



***For those who aren't regular consumers of higher ed stats, they are rarely how they read at face value. Acceptance rate is based on your applicant pool. I always say, if 10 supermodels asked someone out, they'd probably find a way to make it work with all 10, and have a 100% acceptance rate. Admits are up as high school GPAs soar. The other stat that isn't what it seems is graduation rate, but that's another topic.***

Those are interesting numbers and there is nothing wrong with open admissions. Leading state systems e.g. California, Texas, have had a relatively open admissions system for many decades, going all the way back to the baby boomer surge in public higher education in the '60's. Most of our schools have always had a relatively open admissions policy so it's not that much different. I will say that when I went to IUP way back when, they had a low acceptance rate for a public school, although they were able to finagle the numbers by excluding students accepted at the branch campuses and provisionally accepted students (Summer/Jans. in IUP lingo). But that is ancient history. For many years, WCU was also able to finagle their numbers, I believe, by excluding students from underperforming schools, etc. As I understand it, those types of loopholes have been closed when it comes to reporting.

In general, the difference above between Commonwealth's 97% and Ship and WCU's 88% isn't statistically significant. It's all open admissions, basically. SRU's # is interesting. If accurate, kudos to them for achieving that level of competitiveness in the process. There are other factors that can skew the results, e.g. number of part-time commuters who might legitimately not factor into the calculation.

Ultimately, I'm fine with the open admissions. I agree with what others have said regarding fulfilling the central educational mission of the system.

[Fightingscot82]

What (in the academic world) is the theory behind these GPA's soaring?

Is it as simple as school districts now frown upon giving out bad grades? A close friend of mine is a high school math teacher and he's pretty much told he's not allowed to fail anybody. Hell, they give attendance points (in high school) just to make sure everybody passes.

A lot of school districts no longer fail students. If a student fails a class, the district tries to get them to do supplemental work over the summer, but no more mandatory summer school to pass. The only way to get held back is for emotional/behavioral issues where a student just isn't able to function with that age.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

A regional public should indeed have higher acceptance rates. Admissions is a mess right now because we've thrown out the reliability of SAT/ACT but GPAs are so inflated. There are far more students graduating with GPAs above 3.0 than before that its hard to not accept more. But we're stuck with some harsh realities: we're in the bottom half of the higher ed hierarchy, we generally don't offer programs that attract or require the top students, we don't have financial aid to throw at the top students, and we're in a region with evaporating high school classes.

Commonwealth: 97%
Kutztown: 96%
East Stroudsburg: 94%
PennWest: 94%
Indiana: 92%
Millersville: 92%
Shippensburg: 88%
West Chester: 88%
Slippery Rock: 74%

Cheyney is open enrollment with proof of high school completion and submission of FAFSA.

Source: US Department of Education data warehouse



***For those who aren't regular consumers of higher ed stats, they are rarely how they read at face value. Acceptance rate is based on your applicant pool. I always say, if 10 supermodels asked someone out, they'd probably find a way to make it work with all 10, and have a 100% acceptance rate. Admits are up as high school GPAs soar. The other stat that isn't what it seems is graduation rate, but that's another topic.***

What (in the academic world) is the theory behind these GPA's soaring?

Is it as simple as school districts now frown upon giving out bad grades? A close friend of mine is a high school math teacher and he's pretty much told he's not allowed to fail anybody. Hell, they give attendance points (in high school) just to make sure everybody passes.

[Fightingscot82]

It's interesting how the perception of supporters change when the wolfs at the door. I recall not just discent but outright contempt among the masses on this board when a schools full time undergrad percentage would dip and the school would pursue part-time "adult" students or certificate seekers. It was something "real" schools just didn't do and any school that did was substandard and filled a lower place in the college continuum that THEIR institute of higher learning which would NEVER stoop to. Likewise "on-line" education...That was the purview of community colleges and for profit schools. REAL brick and mortar schools like theirs would never lower themselves to trafficking in such low level students. And a school that tried to increase or sustain enrolment through athletics? Well, THEY were CLEARLY one step away from closing their doors and selling their furniture to a local pawn shop to cover their final bills! I remember more than one post about how schools like this should be closed by what ever oversight authority managed them IMMEDIATELY!!!!

You're not wrong. Universities are people and buildings, and neither change easily. My wife is in an online grad program with a PASSHE university. It promised that she could work at her own pace since its designed for working professionals. Every course so far is basically a professor leading a correspondence course with specific due dates on assignments. When asked, the professor said this is how they teach the in person class and she's not going to grade different assignments at the same times. The online for-profit start ups were able to take advantage of this and create much more convenient online education - they just used predatory tactics to enroll students.

[Fightingscot82]

That number even seems low. If you can spell your name and your check clears ... right now that should be the only requirement.

A regional public should indeed have higher acceptance rates. Admissions is a mess right now because we've thrown out the reliability of SAT/ACT but GPAs are so inflated. There are far more students graduating with GPAs above 3.0 than before that its hard to not accept more. But we're stuck with some harsh realities: we're in the bottom half of the higher ed hierarchy, we generally don't offer programs that attract or require the top students, we don't have financial aid to throw at the top students, and we're in a region with evaporating high school classes.

Commonwealth: 97%
Kutztown: 96%
East Stroudsburg: 94%
PennWest: 94%
Indiana: 92%
Millersville: 92%
Shippensburg: 88%
West Chester: 88%
Slippery Rock: 74%

Cheyney is open enrollment with proof of high school completion and submission of FAFSA.

Source: US Department of Education data warehouse



***For those who aren't regular consumers of higher ed stats, they are rarely how they read at face value. Acceptance rate is based on your applicant pool. I always say, if 10 supermodels asked someone out, they'd probably find a way to make it work with all 10, and have a 100% acceptance rate. Admits are up as high school GPAs soar. The other stat that isn't what it seems is graduation rate, but that's another topic.***

[ironmaniup]

It's interesting how the perception of supporters change when the wolfs at the door. I recall not just discent but outright contempt among the masses on this board when a schools full time undergrad percentage would dip and the school would pursue part-time "adult" students or certificate seekers. It was something "real" schools just didn't do and any school that did was substandard and filled a lower place in the college continuum that THEIR institute of higher learning which would NEVER stoop to. Likewise "on-line" education...That was the purview of community colleges and for profit schools. REAL brick and mortar schools like theirs would never lower themselves to trafficking in such low level students. And a school that tried to increase or sustain enrolment through athletics? Well, THEY were CLEARLY one step away from closing their doors and selling their furniture to a local pawn shop to cover their final bills! I remember more than one post about how schools like this should be closed by what ever oversight authority managed them IMMEDIATELY!!!!

I still contend that these changes are a problem for the struggling campuses. First, lots of these ideas end up not working, and are bad ideas from some educational think tank somewhere. Second, even if its a good idea, the big schools will take over the market, and use their resources and reputation to dominate the market. When a football team is doing poorly, lots of gadget plays don't work, getting back to doing fundamentals well works. The state system was designed to give students a quality education at an affordable price. Anything that gets away from those two fundamentals is just a distraction. Is the current trendy utilitarian educational initiatives a type of educational quality ? I don't think so.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Admitting 70-80 percent of applicants...isn't that what a public university should be doing? Isn't that really the mission of the State System? To be where the tax paying public can send their kids for a college education?

That number even seems low. If you can spell your name and your check clears ... right now that should be the only requirement.

[IUPNation]

Many of our schools are admitting 70-80 percent or more of applicants. You can have legitimate discussions about how best to do things, but we're certainly not taking an elitist attitude when it comes to educating students in Pa. What is more common is that students have been taught that state schools are "fall back" schools when they're not admitted to one of the supposedly elite colleges.

Admitting 70-80 percent of applicants...isn't that what a public university should be doing? Isn't that really the mission of the State System? To be where the tax paying public can send their kids for a college education?

[Ship69]

It's interesting how the perception of supporters change when the wolfs at the door. I recall not just discent but outright contempt among the masses on this board when a schools full time undergrad percentage would dip and the school would pursue part-time "adult" students or certificate seekers. It was something "real" schools just didn't do and any school that did was substandard and filled a lower place in the college continuum that THEIR institute of higher learning which would NEVER stoop to. Likewise "on-line" education...That was the purview of community colleges and for profit schools. REAL brick and mortar schools like theirs would never lower themselves to trafficking in such low level students. And a school that tried to increase or sustain enrolment through athletics? Well, THEY were CLEARLY one step away from closing their doors and selling their furniture to a local pawn shop to cover their final bills! I remember more than one post about how schools like this should be closed by what ever oversight authority managed them IMMEDIATELY!!!!

Many of our schools are admitting 70-80 percent or more of applicants. You can have legitimate discussions about how best to do things, but we're certainly not taking an elitist attitude when it comes to educating students in Pa. What is more common is that students have been taught that state schools are "fall back" schools when they're not admitted to one of the supposedly elite colleges.

[boatcapt]

Well, the problem is that once a place really commits to on-line certificate chasing by already employed millennials or some other great hope, there is a very real chance they will lose their traditional mission to others who kept working on that mission, but there is no guarantee that a specific new direction will be successful. Its a classic difficult problem. when do you move, and when do you stay put with what you got.

It's interesting how the perception of supporters change when the wolfs at the door. I recall not just discent but outright contempt among the masses on this board when a schools full time undergrad percentage would dip and the school would pursue part-time "adult" students or certificate seekers. It was something "real" schools just didn't do and any school that did was substandard and filled a lower place in the college continuum that THEIR institute of higher learning which would NEVER stoop to. Likewise "on-line" education...That was the purview of community colleges and for profit schools. REAL brick and mortar schools like theirs would never lower themselves to trafficking in such low level students. And a school that tried to increase or sustain enrolment through athletics? Well, THEY were CLEARLY one step away from closing their doors and selling their furniture to a local pawn shop to cover their final bills! I remember more than one post about how schools like this should be closed by what ever oversight authority managed them IMMEDIATELY!!!!

[Fightingscot82]

Some good news:

State House bill 1300 has been referred to the House Rules Committee for review/edits. This bill would force PASSHE to hold the line on tuition for the next two years (nothing on funding increases to cover increased expenses) and allow individual PASSHE presidents to waive the out of state tuition waiver for students in states that border Pennsylvania.