PASSHE Institutions Merging

[iupgroundhog]

We'll have to disagree. All three PennWest campuses are in areas with declining population and a young person population that is declining even faster. The comprehensive model for in-person only works for proximity and degree so they're really only fighting to get a share of a declining base that would have ever considered them before consolidation. Building a campus that specializes in your area is going to be more attractive than a piss poor failing comprehensive campus. There is no way to cut their way to financial stability. They have to reverse over a decade of bad recruiting, bad retention, and a negative perception. Making Edinboro the fine arts campus of the three leans into their physical campus strength and something that makes choosing Penn West more attractive than studying art at somewhere like Slippery Rock. Part of the problem is that the 14 comprehensive university model was never sustainable. This doesn't mean Slippery Rock or IUP can't offer art - just that if you want to study art at Penn West its going to be at Edinboro. If you go to Clarion or Cal and need to take an art class for general ed requirements, it will be online. Right now academic departments are sprinkled between the 3 campuses but none are fully intact. Its a terrible dynamic and makes the already empty campuses feel more hollow.

To me the only downside is that it lends itself to doing the same with athletics, but I think they've learned that consolidating programs makes the tuition revenue deficit even worse.

I think a couple things on this. First of all, I think that the resource allocation between the 3 campuses would be virtually impossible on all levels, economic, political, logistical, what have you. Second, I don't think what you are suggesting would be competitive in the higher ed marketplace. Just like when you compared pursuing a specialized advanced degree for yourself at IUP and Pitt and referred to the Pitt degree as more prestigious, I don't disagree with that. The same holds true if students want to specialize in something I think most would choose more prestige than what Penn West offers.

[Fightingscot82]

Breaking up majors with an eye toward specialization for the PennWest campuses is completely impractical. When you say that you "don't see 3 generalized campuses as sustainable", with respect to the schools that are PennWest, you hit the nail on the head. That is the basis for the reality of PennWest. All 3 campuses will continue to shrink down to the level of the market for them.

Ant kind of revitalization for those campuses is simply not in the cards.

We'll have to disagree. All three PennWest campuses are in areas with declining population and a young person population that is declining even faster. The comprehensive model for in-person only works for proximity and degree so they're really only fighting to get a share of a declining base that would have ever considered them before consolidation. Building a campus that specializes in your area is going to be more attractive than a piss poor failing comprehensive campus. There is no way to cut their way to financial stability. They have to reverse over a decade of bad recruiting, bad retention, and a negative perception. Making Edinboro the fine arts campus of the three leans into their physical campus strength and something that makes choosing Penn West more attractive than studying art at somewhere like Slippery Rock. Part of the problem is that the 14 comprehensive university model was never sustainable. This doesn't mean Slippery Rock or IUP can't offer art - just that if you want to study art at Penn West its going to be at Edinboro. If you go to Clarion or Cal and need to take an art class for general ed requirements, it will be online. Right now academic departments are sprinkled between the 3 campuses but none are fully intact. Its a terrible dynamic and makes the already empty campuses feel more hollow.

To me the only downside is that it lends itself to doing the same with athletics, but I think they've learned that consolidating programs makes the tuition revenue deficit even worse.

[iupgroundhog]

After arguing with a friend working at one of the Penn West campuses I'm starting to think that the only path to viability is to break up majors by campus and have some specialization. Yeah, the buildings are designed for comprehensive universities but I just don't see 3 generalized campuses as sustainable. Make each campus attractive for a certain audience and lean into that.

Breaking up majors with an eye toward specialization for the PennWest campuses is completely impractical. When you say that you "don't see 3 generalized campuses as sustainable", with respect to the schools that are PennWest, you hit the nail on the head. That is the basis for the reality of PennWest. All 3 campuses will continue to shrink down to the level of the market for them.

Ant kind of revitalization for those campuses is simply not in the cards.

[boatcapt]

There isn’t one generation that can claim they were great at raising kids…..

.
The Greatest Generation raised great kids. Boomers were well adjusted, conscientious, and well educated. This was the first raised generation that was truly capable of breaking from their family past and make themselves what ever they wanted to be. Up until then, children generally went into the line of work of their parents. Unfortunately, Boomers took this new found freedom and became very selfish and self centered...and every generation since then has become more and more selfish and self centered until we get to the current generation that has done nothing but demands sooo much.

[iupgroundhog]

There isn’t one generation that can claim they were great at raising kids…..

Haven't we run out of letters for future generations?

[IUPNation]

There isn’t one generation that can claim they were great at raising kids…..

[Ship69]

No I blame that on their parents, who are Gen X and Millennial

Blame it on the persons of all generations in this country who'd rather take their marching orders from online screens and memes than think for themselves. The results of this mass social experiment can be seen in the infantile level of public discourse these days.

[Fightingscot82]

... and blame it all on the boomers.

No I blame that on their parents, who are Gen X and Millennial

[iupgroundhog]

Yep. We're working on our second generation who have grown up doing EVERYTHING online and struggle doing ANYTHING in person.

... and blame it all on the boomers.

[Fightingscot82]

It's making an already socially (very) awkward generation of students even worse. You can go to school, live in a dorm and never leave the building. I can't fathom living on campus and taking all online classes.

I sit in on tons of interviews a year -- mostly college grads between 1-5 years removed. As a whole, they are awful. It's like talking to a door.

Times have sure changed.

Yep. We're working on our second generation who have grown up doing EVERYTHING online and struggle doing ANYTHING in person.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I don't think that at this stage ALL campuses need to be specialized, just within the merged triads. There's no benefit to be a limping version of a traditional campus. By specializing its more likely they'll have in person classes with humans they'll see outside of class and with professors they'll see on campus. Right now 3 or 4 classes are online taught by people at another campus and with students they'll never meet. Its gotta be such a hollow experience. Now if you want that truly comprehensive university experience with nearly full in person classes regardless of subject, you'll need to choose IUP or Slippery Rock or Shippensburg or East Stroudsburg or whatever.

It's making an already socially (very) awkward generation of students even worse. You can go to school, live in a dorm and never leave the building. I can't fathom living on campus and taking all online classes.

I sit in on tons of interviews a year -- mostly college grads between 1-5 years removed. As a whole, they are awful. It's like talking to a door.

Times have sure changed.

[Bart]

I'm curious how much is still owed on the residence halls at the consolidated campuses. We're a little over 10 years in on what were likely 30 year bonds on most of these projects.

I read right now Mansfield's debt is $110 million or $5,387 per student, Lock Haven $49 million or $1,806 per student, Bloomsburg $120 million or $1,527 per student; Bloomsburg's debt is spread across more students 7,179, Lock Haven had 2,616, and Mansfield 1,313. Guessing it is harder to pay up with less students.

The debt is 4% related to education or a shortfall in general revenue. The rest is from costs related to student housing, recreational or other auxiliary needs.

[Fightingscot82]

They should have specialized the Campuses 15 years ago. Now they have hollowed out all of the good programs they had back then. It would take 5-10 years to build any reputation in a field to the point where students would travel to go there. If you had to go to Clarion for nursing, for instance, many Edinboro and certainly Cal students ( and IUP and Rock students, if they are included in the specialization -and they'd have to be for it to have a chance) would go elsewhere. That's not mentioning the food fight over which programs go where. Avoiding that was why they didn't do it when it was an obviously good idea.

I don't think that at this stage ALL campuses need to be specialized, just within the merged triads. There's no benefit to be a limping version of a traditional campus. By specializing its more likely they'll have in person classes with humans they'll see outside of class and with professors they'll see on campus. Right now 3 or 4 classes are online taught by people at another campus and with students they'll never meet. Its gotta be such a hollow experience. Now if you want that truly comprehensive university experience with nearly full in person classes regardless of subject, you'll need to choose IUP or Slippery Rock or Shippensburg or East Stroudsburg or whatever.

[ironmaniup]

There is not an economy or sufficient population to sustain Mansfield as a community college. I'm curious what the population ages 18-40 where Mansfield is the closest college campus (2 year or 4 year). Mansfield is ideally located to be another Thaddeus Stevens but the faithful won't go for it. Mansfield has a historically well-regarded music program. Its not as large as West Chester but some consider it to be the standard bearer of the system. That's a weak argument to keep it a failing 4 year.

After arguing with a friend working at one of the Penn West campuses I'm starting to think that the only path to viability is to break up majors by campus and have some specialization. Yeah, the buildings are designed for comprehensive universities but I just don't see 3 generalized campuses as sustainable. Make each campus attractive for a certain audience and lean into that.

They should have specialized the Campuses 15 years ago. Now they have hollowed out all of the good programs they had back then. It would take 5-10 years to build any reputation in a field to the point where students would travel to go there. If you had to go to Clarion for nursing, for instance, many Edinboro and certainly Cal students ( and IUP and Rock students, if they are included in the specialization -and they'd have to be for it to have a chance) would go elsewhere. That's not mentioning the food fight over which programs go where. Avoiding that was why they didn't do it when it was an obviously good idea.

[Fightingscot82]

Then turn Mansfield into a community college. The fact there is really only one state system school located in the 5 county Philadelphia region is crazy. I mean yes there are 2 but Cheyney isn’t geared to serve a whole region. Yet there are three in a sparsely populated section and we wonder why so many of them are struggling.

There is not an economy or sufficient population to sustain Mansfield as a community college. I'm curious what the population ages 18-40 where Mansfield is the closest college campus (2 year or 4 year). Mansfield is ideally located to be another Thaddeus Stevens but the faithful won't go for it. Mansfield has a historically well-regarded music program. Its not as large as West Chester but some consider it to be the standard bearer of the system. That's a weak argument to keep it a failing 4 year.

After arguing with a friend working at one of the Penn West campuses I'm starting to think that the only path to viability is to break up majors by campus and have some specialization. Yeah, the buildings are designed for comprehensive universities but I just don't see 3 generalized campuses as sustainable. Make each campus attractive for a certain audience and lean into that.