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  • Originally posted by playersdad View Post
    I've saw several of the athletic facilities in the PSAC. As a former player in the PSAC and coach lots of years ago I have noticed the decline of a lot of the facilities as well. Each univ., private or public, has their own facilities they may show more pride in than others. Gannon is stuck with their land situation but do have a very nice indoor facility. Hurst just very recently made improvements in their facilities. I don't believe the long term situation for these public univ. are good at all. No, none of them are closing shortly but over the next decade I do think they will repurposed somehow (such as the former Alliance College has been turned into a prison). The initial plan will show who can survive short-term and will give more credence to eliminating the others.
    I agree...and the solution seems to be a very short list of half measures. Perhaps these measures might have been successful in turning the PASSHE around 6 or 7 years ago, but it is WAY late to expect these half measures to produce a successful outcome. In baseball terms, this is small ball were you work a player home by bunting, stealing and hitting behind a runner. That is an effective strategy when it's the 3rd inning and youre only down by 2. Unfortuanatly, it is the 8th inning and the PASSHE is down by 7 runs! Time to bring the big boppers out and have them swing away. A lot of runs to make up and not many outs left to make it happen!

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    • Don't think for a second that the privates are immune. It's only a matter of time that Gannon and Mercyhurst begin merger discussions. Their core market is loaded with options, especially of the Catholic variety.

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      • The solution is very easy. Cut off state funding for The Centre County Community College and the Oakland Junior College. Thry don’t need a dime from Harrisburg.

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        • The state could just raise taxes too. Silly humans don't need a dime of their income!!

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          • Originally posted by playersdad View Post
            I've saw several of the athletic facilities in the PSAC. As a former player in the PSAC and coach lots of years ago I have noticed the decline of a lot of the facilities as well. Each univ., private or public, has their own facilities they may show more pride in than others. Gannon is stuck with their land situation but do have a very nice indoor facility. Hurst just very recently made improvements in their facilities. I don't believe the long term situation for these public univ. are good at all. No, none of them are closing shortly but over the next decade I do think they will repurposed somehow (such as the former Alliance College has been turned into a prison). The initial plan will show who can survive short-term and will give more credence to eliminating the others.
            On the issues of prisons, they are running into the same issues as colleges, lack of customers. SCI-Retreat was a state mental hospital turned into a prison, which has since closed. SCI-Cresson was a state center for the mentally ill, which was turned into a prison, but has since closed. SCI-Waynesburg was a juvenile facility, which turned into a state prison, but has closed.

            SCi-Waymart was a state hospital and remains open as a prison. SCI-Dallas was a juvenile facility and remains open as a prison. SCI-Camp Hill was a state school for juveniles and remains open as a prison. SCI-Huntigdon was juvenile facility and remains open as a prison.

            The state as been closing prisons for the past several years, and will be closing more over the next several. They also have been shutting down state run mental hospitals and mental retardation centers, so there are plenty of options for buyers. Add to the list the Dixon Center which is up for sale; that would be a nice drug and alcohol treatment center.

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            • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

              I agree...and the solution seems to be a very short list of half measures. Perhaps these measures might have been successful in turning the PASSHE around 6 or 7 years ago, but it is WAY late to expect these half measures to produce a successful outcome. In baseball terms, this is small ball were you work a player home by bunting, stealing and hitting behind a runner. That is an effective strategy when it's the 3rd inning and youre only down by 2. Unfortuanatly, it is the 8th inning and the PASSHE is down by 7 runs! Time to bring the big boppers out and have them swing away. A lot of runs to make up and not many outs left to make it happen!
              I consider myself to be almost a certified industrial cost cutter with hundreds of millions of dollars removed from budgets. I think BoatCapt may be the only person's comments that I have read that are even close to the pain which needs to be felt to right these sinking ships.

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              • Sounds familiar.

                https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/is...?ocid=msedgntp

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                • Something I noticed that's important to note about those who think closing campuses is a good idea - these schools aren't just predominantly in rural areas, they're also in low earning communities who don't just need geographic access to post-secondary education but the schools are a major socioeconomic pillar.

                  When we close a physical campus, we create a geographic desert. The majority of students commute to nearly all PASSHE schools. If Clarion closes, residents have to drive 41 minutes to Penn State DuBois, 55 minutes to Slippery Rock, or 76 minutes to IUP. The local economies generally don't produce earners that can afford the cost of such daily commutes. Those hours driving also cut into the notion that one can/should "work their way through school."

                  But people can just attend online, right? Rural PA has a high speed internet problem, something required for online education. In Edinboro, PA, the local school district had to install wifi hubs to the perimeter of its schools so parents could drive up and get their kids internet access. In 2020, the state is still building cell phone towers so state police radios will work. No cell service most likely means no high speed internet access.

                  Economics and tax revenue is why these schools were converted to comprehensive schools. More education has a direct correlation to higher incomes - and thus more tax revenue. This is even more important as PA loses population. These schools aren't just economic engines, they're also economic pillars of their communities and counties. These schools also provide many good jobs (above average pay, excellent benefits) for workers without a degree. The most important benefits for this group are low cost health insurance, strong retirement plans, and tuition remission. In Chester County, the two PASSHE campuses together are the #14 employer. But most of these schools are in counties where people struggle. Half of the PASSHE schools are located in counties with a median household income below the state average. That includes Indiana. Of the six schools up for "integration", all six are located in these counties.

                  Bloomsburg (Columbia): #2
                  Lock Haven (Clinton): #4
                  Mansfield (Tioga): #4

                  California (Washington): #9
                  Clarion (Clarion): #1
                  Edinboro (Erie): #24

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
                    Something I noticed that's important to note about those who think closing campuses is a good idea - these schools aren't just predominantly in rural areas, they're also in low earning communities who don't just need geographic access to post-secondary education but the schools are a major socioeconomic pillar.

                    When we close a physical campus, we create a geographic desert. The majority of students commute to nearly all PASSHE schools. If Clarion closes, residents have to drive 41 minutes to Penn State DuBois, 55 minutes to Slippery Rock, or 76 minutes to IUP. The local economies generally don't produce earners that can afford the cost of such daily commutes. Those hours driving also cut into the notion that one can/should "work their way through school."

                    But people can just attend online, right? Rural PA has a high speed internet problem, something required for online education. In Edinboro, PA, the local school district had to install wifi hubs to the perimeter of its schools so parents could drive up and get their kids internet access. In 2020, the state is still building cell phone towers so state police radios will work. No cell service most likely means no high speed internet access.

                    Economics and tax revenue is why these schools were converted to comprehensive schools. More education has a direct correlation to higher incomes - and thus more tax revenue. This is even more important as PA loses population. These schools aren't just economic engines, they're also economic pillars of their communities and counties. These schools also provide many good jobs (above average pay, excellent benefits) for workers without a degree. The most important benefits for this group are low cost health insurance, strong retirement plans, and tuition remission. In Chester County, the two PASSHE campuses together are the #14 employer. But most of these schools are in counties where people struggle. Half of the PASSHE schools are located in counties with a median household income below the state average. That includes Indiana. Of the six schools up for "integration", all six are located in these counties.

                    Bloomsburg (Columbia): #2
                    Lock Haven (Clinton): #4
                    Mansfield (Tioga): #4

                    California (Washington): #9
                    Clarion (Clarion): #1
                    Edinboro (Erie): #24
                    What do the #'s mean? PASSHE ranked as an employer in the county?

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                    • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

                      What do the #'s mean? PASSHE ranked as an employer in the county?
                      Sorry, yes that's it

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                      • They've been pretty clear on BOG calls that their mission is to provide education to students, NOT be an employer.

                        I don't think we have to worry about a campus shutting down. They talked about how the costs to do that are prohibitive and would be footed by the surviving schools. So even if they wanted to shut some down, they can't do it because of the debt burden.

                        I hope that once the state sees that PASSHE is all in on these integrations and getting costs down...that it increases the funding to schools by a substantial margin.

                        And on the drives? Really is driving 45 minutes or 55 minutes to a college that bad? Not that I advocate closing schools, as I don't. But when did having a school 20-30 minutes away become a goal? Maybe there are just too many colleges in Pennsylvania? It's a huge geographic state and if country areas have schools 20-30 mins away from people...that's a sign. With online learning people can have a 0 minute drive. While some areas don't have cable Internet, you can get cellular Internet in a lot more areas.

                        And lets face it, part of the problem is online classes. SNHU, U of Phoenix, and others have came into our area and are stealing some kids that would go to these schools. Our community colleges even signed an agreement with them! So then, we have these nice buildings, but the demand for in person is down by some percentage.

                        I think we just have to define what our primary goals are and build to that.
                        Last edited by complaint_hopeful; 12-08-2020, 03:03 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
                          I hope that once the state sees that PASSHE is all in on these integrations and getting costs down...that it increases the funding to schools by a substantial margin.
                          .
                          Uh-huh, hey, I ain't no expert but as someone who has followed these state appropriation negotiations since the late 1970's I would suggest that increasing the funding is not a part of the mindset in Harrisburg.

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                          • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
                            They've been pretty clear on BOG calls that their mission is to provide education to students, NOT be an employer.

                            I don't think we have to worry about a campus shutting down. They talked about how the costs to do that are prohibitive and would be footed by the surviving schools. So even if they wanted to shut some down, they can't do it because of the debt burden.

                            I hope that once the state sees that PASSHE is all in on these integrations and getting costs down...that it increases the funding to schools by a substantial margin.

                            And on the drives? Really is driving 45 minutes or 55 minutes to a college that bad? Not that I advocate closing schools, as I don't. But when did having a school 20-30 minutes away become a goal? Maybe there are just too many colleges in Pennsylvania? It's a huge geographic state and if country areas have schools 20-30 mins away from people...that's a sign. With online learning people can have a 0 minute drive. While some areas don't have cable Internet, you can get cellular Internet in a lot more areas.

                            And lets face it, part of the problem is online classes. SNHU, U of Phoenix, and others have came into our area and are stealing some kids that would go to these schools. Our community colleges even signed an agreement with them! So then, we have these nice buildings, but the demand for in person is down by some percentage.

                            I think we just have to define what our primary goals are and build to that.
                            I don't think you read my full post.

                            Driving 45 to 55 minutes each way is absolutely prohibitive. Not spending 55 minutes commuting into a city through rush hour traffic. Sure some people will do it but that's also going to take its toll on a car plus the added cost of a lot of gas. If that drive isn't interstate (such as Clarion, PA to Bradford or Indiana) the gas mileage isn't going to be great and winter travel could get iffy.

                            Again, rural PA is not signing up for online school because they have such crappy access to high speed internet. My mother in law has to switch her phone from wifi to data to Facetime my kids. Plus

                            Average net price for a commuter PASSHE student vs Online Universities:
                            PASSHE: $10,396
                            SNHU: $41,722
                            U Phoenix: $15,009

                            I agree that more money isn't coming anytime soon. Some campuses have some buildings that need work and they're wondering if the money the state promised them years ago will ever come for that work. I also think throwing money at it is kicking the can down the road. The only way they're going to see big reductions in cost is through wildly unpopular decisions. They either make big cuts that are potentially unpopular with students (cutting services, cutting athletics, consolidating programs) or they make some internal structural changes (exempting these schools from the union contracts).
                            Last edited by Fightingscot82; 12-08-2020, 03:51 PM.

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                            • So why not market those costs for rural students? That would be a GREAT selling point.
                              Last edited by complaint_hopeful; 12-09-2020, 08:49 AM.

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                              • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
                                So what not market those costs for rural student statistics?
                                Because higher ed marketing sucks. They hire a company to create a new slogan, create a menu of generic media pieces for broadcast, digital, & print then hire a second company to do media buying (TV, radio, billboards). The only internal marketing control is usually internet ads on Facebook, Instagram, & streaming services.

                                I told Edinboro they should put billboards along I-79 and I-90 listing their tuition against the others in the region, their accept rate against the others, etc. It's just not how schools operate.

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