Originally posted by iupgroundhog
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Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View PostEdinboro announced their program cuts. Nothing surprising except maybe history, but it says there are just 9 majors out of 4,400 students. Nothing to the fine arts as was the scuttlebutt.
http://www.edinboronow.com/article/e...for-moratorium
History had 3 students enrolled according to the link.
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Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
Here's a write-up. Pretty amazing how many programs they had with 13 or less students in it:
http://www.edinboronow.com/article/e...for-moratorium
History had 3 students enrolled according to the link.
And ... somehow this all took this long to start happening.
Awful management.
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Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
Here's a write-up. Pretty amazing how many programs they had with 13 or less students in it:
http://www.edinboronow.com/article/e...for-moratorium
History had 3 students enrolled according to the link.
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Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post
You can't tell from looking at this, but sometimes there are programs that overlap pretty significantly, so adding another program is pretty low cost. There is constant argument about how much the low enrolled program costs, some are near zero. IUP cut a bunch of programs a few years baack, and saved very little money, since they did not get rid of staff. The real question is the number of staff layed off, the rest is just on paper. It can put off students though. For instance students pretty commonly come for one major, and stay for another. premed is a great example.
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Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
Cutting a major only saves cost if you actually cut staff.
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It depends. Unless you outright eliminated a department, you're only saving on the FTE faculty needed to teach upper level courses specific to that major. A problem is that the union contract dictates that seniority determines who is actually cut. So they end up cutting two younger associate professors making $60k instead of the older full professor who makes $120k.
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Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post
You'll get a boatload of college administrators that will argue with you, though. If you press them, they go into opportunity costs, and efficiency analysis. I think they all must have gone to the same leadership seminar. Proofs in the pudding though, I agree with you.
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Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post
Professors aren't business people. They don't see bottom lines -- or, certainly don't want to admit their department is nothing but overhead with 7 students in it.
The Union/Professors talk about class sizes being important and laying off professors hurting class ratios. I guess more analysis needs done on that. As if you can lay off 3 professors in a program teaching 5 kids, that might not hurt the ratios that much in other depts. Like if English has 0 people laid off, their ratios stay the same. Now, those professors teaching a program with 5 students, likely teach classes outside of that area I would think.
So the in depth analysis needs done.
That said, Staff have been cut over the years at many schools. Services and equipment have been cut. Faculty are largely the last frontier for cost savings individually. Well, these integrations are now an avenue for cost savings...and the savings will largely come in the way of employee cuts through shared services.
So yeah...that's the state we're in. Cut Staff and Faculty to save the schools.
In a lot of ways, I feel like these schools were in the business of employment over the years as much as education. Over the pandemic, how many laid people off? That probably put them in a worse position financially that will lead to more cuts soon. And the people laid off could have collected the enhanced unemployment.
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Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
Yes - That illustrates a great point in this.
The Union/Professors talk about class sizes being important and laying off professors hurting class ratios. I guess more analysis needs done on that. As if you can lay off 3 professors in a program teaching 5 kids, that might not hurt the ratios that much in other depts. Like if English has 0 people laid off, their ratios stay the same. Now, those professors teaching a program with 5 students, likely teach classes outside of that area I would think.
So the in depth analysis needs done.
That said, Staff have been cut over the years at many schools. Services and equipment have been cut. Faculty are largely the last frontier for cost savings individually. Well, these integrations are now an avenue for cost savings...and the savings will largely come in the way of employee cuts through shared services.
So yeah...that's the state we're in. Cut Staff and Faculty to save the schools.
In a lot of ways, I feel like these schools were in the business of employment over the years as much as education. Over the pandemic, how many laid people off? That probably put them in a worse position financially that will lead to more cuts soon. And the people laid off could have collected the enhanced unemployment.
The other thing to keep in mind, you can cut a small program, but the faculty are still needed to teach gen ed classes, like History for instance. Lots of majors take history classes, so the small history major is like a loss leader that gives you better history classes and doesn't cost you much.
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Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post
The other thing to keep in mind, you can cut a small program, but the faculty are still needed to teach gen ed classes, like History for instance. Lots of majors take history classes, so the small history major is like a loss leader that gives you better history classes and doesn't cost you much.
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Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View PostIt depends. Unless you outright eliminated a department, you're only saving on the FTE faculty needed to teach upper level courses specific to that major. A problem is that the union contract dictates that seniority determines who is actually cut. So they end up cutting two younger associate professors making $60k instead of the older full professor who makes $120k.
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Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post
The problem is, if this were a business the cuts would be targeted at the dead weight, and the highest salaries. Faculty are unusual in that these two groups are protected. like someone said, senior faculty are about twice the cost, to service the same number of students. Some senior faculty are worth the extra money, some are definitely not. In fact some junior faculty are likely to be bigger contributors, as they still can earn promotion, and just have more energy and better rapport with the students.
The other thing to keep in mind, you can cut a small program, but the faculty are still needed to teach gen ed classes, like History for instance. Lots of majors take history classes, so the small history major is like a loss leader that gives you better history classes and doesn't cost you much.
The Gen Ed point is interesting. Seems those will be the exact type of classes that they look to share among schools...and those would be perfect candidates to go online exclusively. No labs associated with history. That would enable them to get rid of some faculty right there.
Not saying this will happen, but it could.
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