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  • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

    Same. The only way this attracts students is if they cut the cost. But that's not the plan. If someone is comparing the triads with an on-the-ground option, they're going to choose the on-the-ground school - especially if they're between PASSHE schools or a local private and the price is perceived as only a bit more. Similar reason people weren't willing to pay $20 to stream a movie on its release day. Its not the same experience as seeing it in the theater with your friends.
    I think where they think they'll grow is online and by offering classes in places that couldn't take those classes before. ie A program that Clarion only offers being offered now to what were Edinboro students.

    I think the ship sailed on growing online schools. Literally every school was forced to have an online presence over the pandemic. I don't see this being a competitive advantage any more.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

      I think where they think they'll grow is online and by offering classes in places that couldn't take those classes before. ie A program that Clarion only offers being offered now to what were Edinboro students.

      I think the ship sailed on growing online schools. Literally every school was forced to have an online presence over the pandemic. I don't see this being a competitive advantage any more.
      The online advantage will be cost and programs. PASSHE schools can undercut most. Very few online universities offer any sort of financial aid so PASSHE's low sticker price gives them an advantage there. Something that has to be negotiated with the union is class size. The current union contract has class size caps. The plan assumes that can be thrown out the window. The downside to teaching larger classes is that the most effective ways of testing knowledge are writing-based. So we'll see more multiple choice (least reliable way of testing knowledge) and group projects (good for development but poor for learning). One other thing that has to be decided is the new curriculum for the schools. Clarion and Edinboro require physical education for all students and it appears that Cal does not. I took swimming (really bad idea) because the best ones like softball and golf were only offered in the summer. How is that taught online?

      For your other post, there actually is an advantage to having more experienced professors teaching low level classes. I think one section a year or even one section a term is great. There is research that shows that students learn more when a more experienced professor is teaching versus a younger one. You're right though; its not cost-effective.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

        It sounds good in theory, but in the execution you'll likely need to combine things to the point that it's very impractical. Like will the schools have 3 different websites or 1? If 3, then you have to maintain similar info on 3 different spots which can lead to confusion. That's one example.

        When you want to enroll as a student, what will that process look like? Will each school have separate admissions phone numbers? Like will you call Clarion and they transfer you to the Cal U campus if you want to go to a program at Cal U?

        And, how will the NCAA respond to the whole 1 budget/1 Athletic Staff/1 Financial Aid for 3 schools...that compete against each other? You likely could see scenarios where certain teams get loaded up with resources to field a highly competitive team tot he detriment of others. Like football - Cal U is usually pretty good. Edinboro and Clarion not so much. Wouldn't it makes sense to give Cal U a couple more scholarships? For recruiting, wouldn't it make sense to send the best players to Cal U? What about transfers? Go to Clarion and Edinboro and play as a freshman/soph and play for 2 years and when you develop transfer to Cal U.

        And other sports would be opposite where you sent the best players to Clarion or Edinboro.
        Companies manage websites and do it seamlessly in many occasions. BAD EXAMPLE...

        I'm sure they're planning on the logistics of the changes, phones and all. COME ON MAN...

        Good question. I'm sure the PSAC and the NCAA will be in constant contact to make the transition as smooth as possible

        Comment


        • All I'll say is you'd be surprised on some of those things. But, I'll agree to disagree from here. Time will tell...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

            I can tell you with 100% certainty that the universities won't keep their branding for long. There's some lip service to names & nicknames staying - but not really. I have been volunteering on a focus group working with a Boston-area marketing firm to flesh out marketing & branding for the western triad. There will be a new name, website, etc. and the campuses will stay named for the universities that once operated there - but similar to Penn State campuses it will be "New Name - Clarion Golden Eagles". Let's say PASSHE picks something stupid like Western Triad University. ESU will now be playing Western Triad - California.

            The proposed names ranged from "I guess that's alright" to "there's no f-ing way you're serious about this one." Most were kitchy names that sounded more like a new community college or a for-profit online school.

            The thing other schools should be concerned about is whether this plan is a test for future consolidations. The system has clearly identified IUP and West Chester as the only untouchable universities - possible hub campuses for future consolidation based on east/west. Although University of Eastern Pennsylvania at East Stroudsburg is a mouth full.
            IMO, the best choice, if a combined name is the decision, would be Pennsylvania Western. Shortened to PaWest-Edinboro, PaWest-Clarion and PaWest-Califoria ( I hate it versus CAL U, but these are tough times). Given that Boro(49-58)and Clarion(36-74) have been generally less than stellar in football, they should both drop that sport and spread whatever schollies are available to other sports. Once again I hate it but unless new funding can be found, the VULCANS need to cut back on marginal sports and redistribute whatever aid is available. Time will tell.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CALUPA69 View Post

              IMO, the best choice, if a combined name is the decision, would be Pennsylvania Western. Shortened to PaWest-Edinboro, PaWest-Clarion and PaWest-Califoria ( I hate it versus CAL U, but these are tough times). Given that Boro(49-58)and Clarion(36-74) have been generally less than stellar in football, they should both drop that sport and spread whatever schollies are available to other sports. Once again I hate it but unless new funding can be found, the VULCANS need to cut back on marginal sports and redistribute whatever aid is available. Time will tell.
              First, it sounds like you are familiar with last week's meeting with the marketing firm haha.

              Second, the plan specifically says they're not dropping sports. They're actually adding sports. The preliminary research showed that athletes are 10-12% of each school's enrollment so cutting any sport actually reduces revenue beyond the expense reduction. Plus the athletic scholarship endowments are all held by each school's foundations, which are legally separate. The state can't force them to combine resources. In PASSHE, athletic scholarships aren't budgeted so on paper every player brings in the same amount of revenue. So any reduction in player rosters means less tuition revenue for the school. Even a poorly performing football program still has a positive P/L sheet if the expenses are kept in line.

              This plan can't use a typical corporate merger model. There's too much debt and too much politics involved. All this plan does is a) minimize the supervision line of the chancellor, b) make PASSHE a state agency with better finances, and c) give the chancellor more opportunities to do podcast interviews repeating his wonk-speak about transformation. It doesn't lower the cost to students, it doesn't increase access to students, and it doesn't improve the education of students.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                First, it sounds like you are familiar with last week's meeting with the marketing firm haha.

                Second, the plan specifically says they're not dropping sports. They're actually adding sports. The preliminary research showed that athletes are 10-12% of each school's enrollment so cutting any sport actually reduces revenue beyond the expense reduction. Plus the athletic scholarship endowments are all held by each school's foundations, which are legally separate. The state can't force them to combine resources. In PASSHE, athletic scholarships aren't budgeted so on paper every player brings in the same amount of revenue. So any reduction in player rosters means less tuition revenue for the school. Even a poorly performing football program still has a positive P/L sheet if the expenses are kept in line.

                This plan can't use a typical corporate merger model. There's too much debt and too much politics involved. All this plan does is a) minimize the supervision line of the chancellor, b) make PASSHE a state agency with better finances, and c) give the chancellor more opportunities to do podcast interviews repeating his wonk-speak about transformation. It doesn't lower the cost to students, it doesn't increase access to students, and it doesn't improve the education of students.
                They keep saying over and over that the Triads will increase breadth of programs that schools can offer...

                But, I don't see how with them eliminating things, unless it's just by taking it online. Which could be done now. Just enroll at the school in PASSHE that offers it.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

                  They keep saying over and over that the Triads will increase breadth of programs that schools can offer...

                  But, I don't see how with them eliminating things, unless it's just by taking it online. Which could be done now. Just enroll at the school in PASSHE that offers it.
                  For an individual class that's possible. I believe accreditation requires so many credits to earned at the degree-granting school. Sure, Edinboro with its large & deep art school that expands some opportunities for students attending Cal & Clarion to a degree because they're not going to approve a Cal accounting major to take an animation class. But Edinboro does have financial planning classes that could supplement business majors at the other two.

                  The only way to really save money is reduce staffing. This is really going to hurt student-facing services. A less personal admissions process reduces the likelihood an applicant feels wanted & welcome. An overloaded financial aid office could overlook a big error or cause staff turnover.

                  So much of what's wrong with this system is management making strategic decisions based on budget expenses. Seemingly very little thought into what drives revenue. I can rattle off probably a dozen examples.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                    For an individual class that's possible. I believe accreditation requires so many credits to earned at the degree-granting school. Sure, Edinboro with its large & deep art school that expands some opportunities for students attending Cal & Clarion to a degree because they're not going to approve a Cal accounting major to take an animation class. But Edinboro does have financial planning classes that could supplement business majors at the other two.

                    The only way to really save money is reduce staffing. This is really going to hurt student-facing services. A less personal admissions process reduces the likelihood an applicant feels wanted & welcome. An overloaded financial aid office could overlook a big error or cause staff turnover.

                    So much of what's wrong with this system is management making strategic decisions based on budget expenses. Seemingly very little thought into what drives revenue. I can rattle off probably a dozen examples.
                    In principle, advanced courses that would have 5-10 students could be taught as one class with 15-30 students, So any program that has only a few majors - for example physics or audiology, could offer the intro courses at all three schools, and provide the advanced classes in hybrid mode in one section, parsing out the advanced courses to the school with the faculty with the appropriate expertise, and wherever there happens to be an available faculty to teach the course. I can see the courses rotating around the schools rather than being located at just one. I think they get the idea from how Doctors work these days, rotating from office to office to increase access. There will be the same issues as well.

                    Comment


                    • The Board of Governors will webcast its integrations update workshop tomorrow, May 26, during which we will provide a briefing on our efforts to receive, review, and utilize the feedback received since the 60-day public comment period began April 28. (Because this is a workshop rather than an official meeting, no board actions will be taken.)

                      We have been collecting public comments through email, the website, and by other means and actively identifying those actionable items that can help improve the integrations plans. We will share an update regarding those efforts and provide some more details about the upcoming public hearings that are slated for next month.


                      Pennsylvania's State System of Higher Education - YouTube

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

                        In principle, advanced courses that would have 5-10 students could be taught as one class with 15-30 students, So any program that has only a few majors - for example physics or audiology, could offer the intro courses at all three schools, and provide the advanced classes in hybrid mode in one section, parsing out the advanced courses to the school with the faculty with the appropriate expertise, and wherever there happens to be an available faculty to teach the course. I can see the courses rotating around the schools rather than being located at just one. I think they get the idea from how Doctors work these days, rotating from office to office to increase access. There will be the same issues as well.
                        Yeah so if they rotate...your class would be at each school what once ever 3 years or 1.5 years? And these colleges aren't that close. Like doctors offices are generally within an hour or so of each other. Like do you expect the same prof to drive to Clarion to teach a class 1 semester? Then Edinboro the next? And Cal U the next?

                        I did hear they were kicking around the idea of a student being on Campus 1 for Year 1, Campus 2 for Year 2, and Campus 3 for Year 3.

                        I think in theory this all sounds great. But when you think of the use cases, it breaks down.

                        Like I've heard they're looking at linking classrooms on campuses with video. (Which has been done in the state system to some extent for over a decade.) So you'd have a professor in 1 room on a campus and link that room to students at another campus and they'd watch the class on TV.

                        I think there could be some market for these use cases. But, I don't think any of this is going to make these schools grow unless they reduce costs. I don't see students paying full price for this.
                        Last edited by complaint_hopeful; 05-26-2021, 06:42 AM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
                          The Board of Governors will webcast its integrations update workshop tomorrow, May 26, during which we will provide a briefing on our efforts to receive, review, and utilize the feedback received since the 60-day public comment period began April 28. (Because this is a workshop rather than an official meeting, no board actions will be taken.)

                          We have been collecting public comments through email, the website, and by other means and actively identifying those actionable items that can help improve the integrations plans. We will share an update regarding those efforts and provide some more details about the upcoming public hearings that are slated for next month.


                          Pennsylvania's State System of Higher Education - YouTube
                          And of course the meeting starts off with the Chancellor running through his slide deck of why we are Integrating and why we need to. And how innovative this is.

                          He seems quite subdued.

                          Comment


                          • He said of the 299 comments, 90% or so are opinions. About 10% (of overall) are actionable.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

                              Yeah so if they rotate...your class would be at each school what once ever 3 years or 1.5 years? And these colleges aren't that close. Like doctors offices are generally within an hour or so of each other. Like do you expect the same prof to drive to Clarion to teach a class 1 semester? Then Edinboro the next? And Cal U the next?

                              I think in theory this all sounds great. But when you think of the use cases, it breaks down.

                              Like I've heard they're looking at linking classrooms on campuses with video. (Which has been done in the state system to some extent for over a decade.) So you'd have a professor in 1 room on a campus and link that room to students at another campus and they'd watch the class on TV.

                              I think there could be some market for these use cases. But, I don't think any of this is going to make these schools grow unless they reduce costs. I don't see students paying full price for this.
                              When my parents attended Edinboro in the early 1970s adjunct faculty weren't a thing, so they had classes live broadcast on CCTV. Not ideal but also previously done. The same for using the "teledoc" model for student services like billing, financial aid, advising, etc. But those little micro negative experiences add up over time, especially when students know students are having a "normal" experience at Slippery Rock or IUP for the same price.

                              Comment


                              • Watching this BOG meeting, the chancellor presented that to date 299 comments have been left on the PASSHE Public Comment page. Of the 299, 229 were dismissed as "viewpoint comments about the plan, approach, etc." This means no matter how unpopular the public groundswell is, only the legislature can stop it now.

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