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  • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

    to ease certain people's fears, I guess. My gut feeling is that there are a small but vocal group of Faculty and parents expressing their fear for the upcoming Fall semester, I expect it to change since if the state mandates are over at that point, it will be pointless after the first weekend, and difficult to enforce. I doubt it will have much impact on enrollment one way or another.
    The Trump Country folk surrounding IUP will absolutely not just reject it they'll also cry to any right-leaning news source just like the kid thrown out of class a couple years ago. Unfortunately it looks like an unforced error on IUP's part.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

      I tend to think the enrollment now is the 'normal' level for PASSHE and that the 2010 level was due to the education bubble.

      I am sure that some kids choose to work on gas lines or other areas too. I just don't think it's a main factor. It's demographic, cost, brand, etc.
      I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

      Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

      At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

        I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

        Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

        At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.
        And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

          I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

          Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

          At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.
          There's not excess capacity if we recognize that adult learners are a real market and the way of the future. Beyond tech and trades, very few fields have pathways that avoid college credentials. Excess capacity for traditional-aged students who plan to live on on campus.

          Student debt is MUCH higher than previous generations but hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years. Most student loan debt is held by people whose tuition costs crazy sums of money: doctors and lawyers. Less than 5% of all bachelors degree holders have $100k+ in student loans and when you remove those with MD and JD debt, its less than 1%.

          The biggest driver of Millennial and Gen Z debt is decreased state funding and construction debt. Boomer managers for years pushed renovations and construction to pad resumes and thinking it would give that school a leg up on its competition. It backfired because all the competition was doing the same thing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

            There's not excess capacity if we recognize that adult learners are a real market and the way of the future. Beyond tech and trades, very few fields have pathways that avoid college credentials. Excess capacity for traditional-aged students who plan to live on on campus.

            Student debt is MUCH higher than previous generations but hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years. Most student loan debt is held by people whose tuition costs crazy sums of money: doctors and lawyers. Less than 5% of all bachelors degree holders have $100k+ in student loans and when you remove those with MD and JD debt, its less than 1%.

            The biggest driver of Millennial and Gen Z debt is decreased state funding and construction debt. Boomer managers for years pushed renovations and construction to pad resumes and thinking it would give that school a leg up on its competition. It backfired because all the competition was doing the same thing.

            Small sample size but I personally know several kids (friends children) who are attending Duquesne and other similar schools ... with majors like nursing, marketing, etc. Granted, their parents largely look down at us lowly state schools, but the funny thing is the Duquesne nurse and the IUP nurse are going to get the same job and make the same amount of money.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

              And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.
              Excess capacity is the end result. Actually closing schools is an effective way of addressing excess capacity but that's not an option. Does anyone believe PASSHE as a system is going to get back to enrolement levels of 10+ years ago based on the changes they are making? Remember, hope is not a belief.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

                And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.
                Too many 4 year schools. Too many state-funded schools and way too many private schools. PA has roughly the same number of 4-year schools as New York with nearly half the population.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                  Excess capacity is the end result. Actually closing schools is an effective way of addressing excess capacity but that's not an option. Does anyone believe PASSHE as a system is going to get back to enrolement levels of 10+ years ago based on the changes they are making? Remember, hope is not a belief.
                  No, but with a better funding formula they can sustain current enrollment. Until rural broadband is improved, geographic access is necessary. I was visiting my in-laws last weekend and the highest speed internet available to them can't handle live streaming like Zoom or two simultaneous streams of recorded video like Netflix.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                    The Trump Country folk surrounding IUP will absolutely not just reject it they'll also cry to any right-leaning news source just like the kid thrown out of class a couple years ago. Unfortunately it looks like an unforced error on IUP's part.
                    Not sure about that. Don't forget that whatever they decide affects the community, not just the campus. I don't know what the vaccination rate is in Indiana Borough and White Twp. but I'm sure those folks don't want to experience another surge, even if it's a mini-surge.

                    IMO, the best solution is for the powers that be to find a way to require student vaccinations. There is time to do that. The second best option is to allow vaccinated students to attend class mask-free, provided they can document the vaccination. That should encourage unvaccinated students to get vaccinated.

                    It's all about the vaccination.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                      No, but with a better funding formula they can sustain current enrollment. Until rural broadband is improved, geographic access is necessary. I was visiting my in-laws last weekend and the highest speed internet available to them can't handle live streaming like Zoom or two simultaneous streams of recorded video like Netflix.
                      Some number crunching:

                      PASSHE State provided budget in 2010-11: $465,197,000
                      PASSHE system-wide enrollment 2010-11: 119,513
                      Notional "per student" funding 2010-11: $3892

                      PASSHE State provided budget in 2020-21: $477,470,000 (2.7% increase over 2010-11)
                      PASSHE system-wide enrollment 2020-21: 93,704 (22% decline over 2010-11)
                      Notional "per student" funding 2020-21: $5095

                      Some observations:

                      PASSHE State funding is actually up over the 10 year period that enrollment has been falling.
                      In 2010-11 the PASSHE got a temporary infusion of federal cash in the form of the ARRA. That bloated the PASSHE budget beyond a taxpayer sustainable level.
                      PASSHE funding per student is up 31%.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
                        Some number crunching:

                        PASSHE State provided budget in 2010-11: $465,197,000
                        PASSHE system-wide enrollment 2010-11: 119,513
                        Notional "per student" funding 2010-11: $3892

                        PASSHE State provided budget in 2020-21: $477,470,000 (2.7% increase over 2010-11)
                        PASSHE system-wide enrollment 2020-21: 93,704 (22% decline over 2010-11)
                        Notional "per student" funding 2020-21: $5095

                        Some observations:

                        PASSHE State funding is actually up over the 10 year period that enrollment has been falling.
                        In 2010-11 the PASSHE got a temporary infusion of federal cash in the form of the ARRA. That bloated the PASSHE budget beyond a taxpayer sustainable level.
                        PASSHE funding per student is up 31%.
                        Which is still 48th out of 50 states.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                          Which is still 48th out of 50 states.
                          I also note that PA has a number of student grants/scholarships managed by the PHEAA ($369M in 2020-21). While it is an indirect funding stream, PASSHE students take these state provided dollars and give them to the school of their choice in the form of tuition.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                            I also note that PA has a number of student grants/scholarships managed by the PHEAA ($369M in 2020-21). While it is an indirect funding stream, PASSHE students take these state provided dollars and give them to the school of their choice in the form of tuition.
                            Yes but PHEAA is also available to any PA college student so while Jonathan uses his grant to attend Shippensburg, Suzie down the street uses her grant at Messiah. The agency also doesn't give preference to PASSHE. The available funding should be slanted to encourage PASSHE attendance then state-funded then private.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                              Yes but PHEAA is also available to any PA college student so while Jonathan uses his grant to attend Shippensburg, Suzie down the street uses her grant at Messiah. The agency also doesn't give preference to PASSHE. The available funding should be slanted to encourage PASSHE attendance then state-funded then private.
                              Shouldn't the funding be "slanted" to Jonathan and Suzie receiving the education he/she wants at the school they want to attend? PASSHE has an equal opportunity to compete for students receiving these dollars. Don't know were that would be, but it would be interesting to see what % of the PHEAA go to PASSHE schools.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                                Shouldn't the funding be "slanted" to Jonathan and Suzie receiving the education he/she wants at the school they want to attend? PASSHE has an equal opportunity to compete for students receiving these dollars. Don't know were that would be, but it would be interesting to see what % of the PHEAA go to PASSHE schools.
                                State money should favor state agencies.

                                Comment

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