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  • Originally posted by Horror Child View Post

    What's the misrepresentation in the story?
    Not in this story but others about schools (mostly HBCUs) doing the same thing. Its just a lazy assumption that forgiving balances = forgiving loans.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

      I wonder what percentage of currently enrolled, dorm living students would opt to take a class(es) on-line vice having to get up, leave their room and walk ALL the way across campus to attend an in person class?
      I don't have a number, but its significant. especially in place of the 100+ student lecture in a gen ed subject. They want their major F2F but anything they see as non-essential they want the most convenient/easiest way. Heck, typically 1/2 of the students in those big lectures don't go anyway, unless they are somehow required to.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

        Yep. And this generation of student doesn't seem to care about living in the nicest housing. I mean maybe if it went back to the poor housing that some of these campuses had 20 years ago, it would matter. I think they just come to expect a certain standard...but it doesn't sway them in a decision.

        This generation of student doesn't really like to leave their dorm room for social events in general. They are absorbed into their phone and watching streaming services online. So campuses built these big arenas and new student unions, but kids stay in their room mostly and don't like to leave it. Probably room service where food was delivered would be more popular.
        That was the problem. Students of the late 90s and 2000s were willing to borrow their way to the college experience of their dreams. They also grew up having never shared a bedroom and rarely ever using a public shower. Sounds crazy but its part of the slow birth decline - people having 2 kids in a 3 or 4 bedroom house had no need to have kids share a bedroom. A lot of houses now have 2 full baths. Even sharing a full bath with mom & dad is getting less common. The concept of sharing a bedroom with another person brought on a lot of anxiety - especially sharing one that was 10x12. So schools built housing that was more reflective of how their students lived. And nobody questioned it - the low density or the increased cost.

        Then the recession hit. Students post-2010 grew up knowing people who lost jobs during the recession, lost homes in the mortgage crisis, or couldn't retire as planned. They started questioning why they're paying for certain things or why amenities cost so much. They still pay it but they're going to ***** about it online. That's where we are today - with a lot less population.

        Today's student is okay with some common space but wants their own private bedroom just like home. This is where they watch movies - on their own device. The days of a car full of kids going to rent a movie then watching it together are over. Even studying, students want to be in a group setting but stare at their laptops the whole time. There's an author who calls this generational phenomenon "alone together." So the low density suite/apartment setup is exactly what students want - the problem is that they don't like how much it costs. When this generation is okay with old-fashioned cell-block style dorms, they want their own room and usually are doing so because they're cost-conscious.

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        • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

          Not in this story but others about schools (mostly HBCUs) doing the same thing. Its just a lazy assumption that forgiving balances = forgiving loans.
          I think it was only partial balances too. Like not the whole amount.

          So basically the colleges used the money to pay themselves. I know some colleges used the money partially to reimburse past purchases. Like if they bought Item A 5 months ago, they reimbursed themselves for that purchase with these funds.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

            I don't have a number, but its significant. especially in place of the 100+ student lecture in a gen ed subject. They want their major F2F but anything they see as non-essential they want the most convenient/easiest way. Heck, typically 1/2 of the students in those big lectures don't go anyway, unless they are somehow required to.
            Yep. And for colleges that had housing available over the pandemic...kids lived in housing and took online classes. Now they could have likely rented an apartment somewhere cheaper.

            One theory I have though is that there are a bunch of different sub-groups within these students. Like a blanket statement doesn't cover them all, like it may have 20 years ago. Some portion does want all in person classes. Some portion does want all online. Some portion wants a mix. And no group is the majority.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

              That was the problem. Students of the late 90s and 2000s were willing to borrow their way to the college experience of their dreams. They also grew up having never shared a bedroom and rarely ever using a public shower. Sounds crazy but its part of the slow birth decline - people having 2 kids in a 3 or 4 bedroom house had no need to have kids share a bedroom. A lot of houses now have 2 full baths. Even sharing a full bath with mom & dad is getting less common. The concept of sharing a bedroom with another person brought on a lot of anxiety - especially sharing one that was 10x12. So schools built housing that was more reflective of how their students lived. And nobody questioned it - the low density or the increased cost.

              Then the recession hit. Students post-2010 grew up knowing people who lost jobs during the recession, lost homes in the mortgage crisis, or couldn't retire as planned. They started questioning why they're paying for certain things or why amenities cost so much. They still pay it but they're going to ***** about it online. That's where we are today - with a lot less population.

              Today's student is okay with some common space but wants their own private bedroom just like home. This is where they watch movies - on their own device. The days of a car full of kids going to rent a movie then watching it together are over. Even studying, students want to be in a group setting but stare at their laptops the whole time. There's an author who calls this generational phenomenon "alone together." So the low density suite/apartment setup is exactly what students want - the problem is that they don't like how much it costs. When this generation is okay with old-fashioned cell-block style dorms, they want their own room and usually are doing so because they're cost-conscious.
              Yep. And some of our colleges in PASSHE are taking double rooms with shared bedrooms and selling them as a single room. You can do that when you aren't going to fill a hall either.

              As far as events on campus...it's hard to get this generation to leave their room.

              I seriously wonder where society is going. Social media and all of this online stuff seems to be changing it alot. Anxiety and depression is pretty rampant in this generation. And when kids have social anxiety...what do they sometimes do? Take all online classes...when maybe they need to get out more into in person living to overcome it? I guess they can get jobs online one day as remote work was ushered in more fully in the pandemic. Some of our colleges that would have never allowed remote work are starting to allow it now. (They begrudgingly allowed it during the pandemic.) But, if they can get more staff off of campus, that's less buildings they need and the expenses associated with it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                Not in this story but others about schools (mostly HBCUs) doing the same thing. Its just a lazy assumption that forgiving balances = forgiving loans.
                Why is that lazy? A "balance" is just as much a debt as a loan is.

                Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                At schools with lower retention, this is huge because unpaid balances are the #1 reason students leave college. A lot of them don't have family members with credit to sign off on loans or even have the family tax information to apply. Lending is strange - you can buy houses and cars with a job offer letter (future potential) but can't get student loans with the academic equivalent (high grades & SAT/ACT). Additionally, Recovery Act money for universities was targeted the same way as it was for families. There was a formula that rewarded schools for having more students from lower family incomes. Cheyney has the highest percentage of students from lower incomes than any college or university in the state so they probably received a decent amount relative to their annual budget, but that also plugged a hole they've had in collecting money due.
                You do realize that the house and car provide collateral in case the debtor fails to pay (at least under normal circumstances). With four-year graduation rates <40% and six-year rates <60% (and six years means two additional years of borrowing and two fewer years of working), the chances of repayment of the uncollateralized loans is much smaller, which is why only fools would make those loans.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Horror Child View Post

                  Why is that lazy? A "balance" is just as much a debt as a loan is.



                  You do realize that the house and car provide collateral in case the debtor fails to pay (at least under normal circumstances). With four-year graduation rates <40% and six-year rates <60% (and six years means two additional years of borrowing and two fewer years of working), the chances of repayment of the uncollateralized loans is much smaller, which is why only fools would make those loans.
                  A balance is not student loan debt. That's how some headlines are reading.

                  Graduation rates aren't completion rates. It is the percentage of traditional age full time freshmen who graduate from the same school 4 or 6 years later. If you do 2 years at Mansfield then finish your last 2 at West Chester, you still count against Mansfield's graduation rate even though you completed in 4 years. It's a poor measurement of anything other than retention.

                  Student loan debt is also not extinguishable through bankruptcy. Default rates on student loans are still pretty low if you only look at traditional non-profit private and public. Same with average debt.

                  Comment


                  • Yes - And I've even heard that schools may report enrollment different. So when you see this school is up 1% or this school is down 10%...it's not 100% apples to apples. <-- This totally surprised me because I thought enrollment was enrollment.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
                      Yes - And I've even heard that schools may report enrollment different. So when you see this school is up 1% or this school is down 10%...it's not 100% apples to apples. <-- This totally surprised me because I thought enrollment was enrollment.
                      Federal reporting is what matters (IPEDS). A whole lot depends on what is entered there. Total enrollment may be up 1% but that could be bodies - not every student is full time. I think FTE really only matters for financial projection but you're right that enrollment announcements aren't what they appear, even if some of the federal reporting metrics are flawed.

                      Comment


                      • Yep. And some schools may be down 3% enrollment for example. But they might be down like 10% in undergrad. And they might be up 7% in grad. So 3% doesn't sound terrible. I mean...it's not good, but not terrible either on the surface. But, a grad student pays to go to a campus for what 12-18 months. While you lose an undergrad student and that's 4-5 years of potential revenue lost.

                        And this is exactly what's happening at some schools. They're doing well in grad students and poorly in undergrad.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                          A balance is not student loan debt. That's how some headlines are reading.

                          Graduation rates aren't completion rates. It is the percentage of traditional age full time freshmen who graduate from the same school 4 or 6 years later. If you do 2 years at Mansfield then finish your last 2 at West Chester, you still count against Mansfield's graduation rate even though you completed in 4 years. It's a poor measurement of anything other than retention.

                          Student loan debt is also not extinguishable through bankruptcy. Default rates on student loans are still pretty low if you only look at traditional non-profit private and public. Same with average debt.
                          Maybe I can get my "debt" to San Antonio College extinguished for that library book I didn't return 25 years ago extinguished?? I tried to get a transcript for the Basic FORTRAN course I took about 10 years ago and was told that they wouldn't provide it until I had paid for the book!!!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                            Maybe I can get my "debt" to San Antonio College extinguished for that library book I didn't return 25 years ago extinguished?? I tried to get a transcript for the Basic FORTRAN course I took about 10 years ago and was told that they wouldn't provide it until I had paid for the book!!!
                            Honestly, they should forgive it. I think years ago it was easier to hold transcripts than it was to chase down unpaid balances, but I'm beginning to think that schools should let transcripts belong to the student. And nominal debt like library fines and parking tickets should be forgiven after so many years. I know dozens of students who completed their programs, walked at graduation, and are successful working professionals in their field but do not have a completed degree because of something like this. Its petty and after a while does more harm than good to any party.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                              Honestly, they should forgive it. I think years ago it was easier to hold transcripts than it was to chase down unpaid balances, but I'm beginning to think that schools should let transcripts belong to the student. And nominal debt like library fines and parking tickets should be forgiven after so many years. I know dozens of students who completed their programs, walked at graduation, and are successful working professionals in their field but do not have a completed degree because of something like this. Its petty and after a while does more harm than good to any party.
                              Yea...I probably could have elevated it to an actual person and gotten it take care of, but it was a nothing course in a largely "dead" computer language in a line of study that I had long since abandoned. I just redid the transfer paperwork and left San Antonio College off...Problem solved.

                              Comment


                              • There are no future Foosball schedules posted for the Pee Sack after this coming season on the Pee Sack web site.

                                Interesting.

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