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  • Originally posted by SRU 88 View Post

    But Western is still down about 1500 from the time just before the merger
    Yes they are - but still #2 in the system, which was the question. Cal and Clarion had huge drops from last fall.

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    • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

      Yes they are - but still #2 in the system, which was the question. Cal and Clarion had huge drops from last fall.

      What feedback have they received from, you know, actual paying students regarding the mergers? Is that playing a part in Cal and Clarion dropping?

      Other than a name change, do the students on these campuses even notice anything different?


      This is all still very new. I still have serious doubts about these athletic departments all surviving moving in to the future.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post


        What feedback have they received from, you know, actual paying students regarding the mergers? Is that playing a part in Cal and Clarion dropping?

        Other than a name change, do the students on these campuses even notice anything different?


        This is all still very new. I still have serious doubts about these athletic departments all surviving moving in to the future.
        No way is Mon Valley keeping all the foosball money.

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        • Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post


          What feedback have they received from, you know, actual paying students regarding the mergers? Is that playing a part in Cal and Clarion dropping?

          Other than a name change, do the students on these campuses even notice anything different?


          This is all still very new. I still have serious doubts about these athletic departments all surviving moving in to the future.
          That's a good question. I've been told that students are generally okay but just dislike the suddenness of the merger & name change. I think it goes much smoother if they go by "Clarion" and "California Vulcans" they'll be alright. Nobody likes or identifies with "Penn West Edinboro". Last night at the Pete, it was "Edinboro". The awkwardness of the outdated branding all over campus makes it feel cheap.

          I've raised the athletic questions many times and each time it has been explained to me that the ROI for teams is almost always positive and that they need the net tuition of athletes to keep things positive. A couple times I've been told that athletics would actually be expanded with low-cost programs that will bring additional students and stimulate alumni support. I just haven't heard of any progress.

          My biggest concern remains that this is kind of like rebranding the Geo cars as a Chevy. The branding is different and it has a new name, but its still the same ****ty car with the same ****ty engine. I thought there would be more accountability for those known bad actors holding things down - but I've only heard the opposite. With less local senior oversight, more people are getting away with crap work and the good workers are definitely noticing (and if they're able, job searching).

          The Commonwealth group is a complete cluster. They waited to start the integration work until things were official then ran into union fighting over job descriptions and the same jobs being different classifications at campuses - and the stress and anxiety over viability led to sudden turnover. I know of one guy who has to do his job at Mansfield and now also cover Lock Haven two days a week *IN PERSON*. That's not exactly an quick drive up a few exits on the interstate - he's not looking forward the winter.

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          • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

            That's a good question. I've been told that students are generally okay but just dislike the suddenness of the merger & name change. I think it goes much smoother if they go by "Clarion" and "California Vulcans" they'll be alright. Nobody likes or identifies with "Penn West Edinboro". Last night at the Pete, it was "Edinboro". The awkwardness of the outdated branding all over campus makes it feel cheap.

            I've raised the athletic questions many times and each time it has been explained to me that the ROI for teams is almost always positive and that they need the net tuition of athletes to keep things positive. A couple times I've been told that athletics would actually be expanded with low-cost programs that will bring additional students and stimulate alumni support. I just haven't heard of any progress.

            My biggest concern remains that this is kind of like rebranding the Geo cars as a Chevy. The branding is different and it has a new name, but its still the same ****ty car with the same ****ty engine. I thought there would be more accountability for those known bad actors holding things down - but I've only heard the opposite. With less local senior oversight, more people are getting away with crap work and the good workers are definitely noticing (and if they're able, job searching).

            The Commonwealth group is a complete cluster. They waited to start the integration work until things were official then ran into union fighting over job descriptions and the same jobs being different classifications at campuses - and the stress and anxiety over viability led to sudden turnover. I know of one guy who has to do his job at Mansfield and now also cover Lock Haven two days a week *IN PERSON*. That's not exactly an quick drive up a few exits on the interstate - he's not looking forward the winter.
            I think what people have told you about athletics has no validity. Not that it isn't true, but the future is unclear. At this point, nobody knows.

            From a system perspective, I don't think the enrollment via athletics idea supersedes other considerations. I don't think Greenstein cares about these sports teams.

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            • Originally posted by iupgroundhog View Post

              I think what people have told you about athletics has no validity. Not that it isn't true, but the future is unclear. At this point, nobody knows.

              From a system perspective, I don't think the enrollment via athletics idea supersedes other considerations. I don't think Greenstein cares about these sports teams.
              100% agree with you on the Chancellor. He's a wonk - a great interview for an article, conference panel discussion, or podcast interview. He talks about PASSHE in abstract messages. He's also never been a university president - so I have some doubts about his understanding of the details. Greenstein will talk about sports in the big picture immeasurables - opportunities for students, alumni engagement, community enrichment, etc. There's a reason tuition-dependent DIII schools almost never cut football - they plan in "net revenue per FTE", a factor I doubt any PASSHE schools use in planning. Oddly, PASSHE is starting to use net revenue per FTE in academic programs. I know PASSHE schools were told to measure ROI for athletic programs and I've seen Edinboro's which gives me confidence in the short-term. I just don't trust the chancellor to see or examine those details. Its almost as if PASSHE needs a number-crunching, bean-counting, desk jockey to be a very powerful, influential #2 person.

              Back to Cheyney, I still think they need to crunch the numbers on bringing back NCAA sports. It boosts enrollment - and net revenue. Plus they can run a program on the cheap by only scheduling regional DII schools for non-conference games like Lincoln, Bowie State, and some of the CACC schools. Their new corporate partnerships model should lend itself to finding someone to help fund major renovations of their facilities, which I believe are already in the works. Walton has been a godsend for Cheyney, but he doesn't always think about higher ed when it needs to be thought of as a university.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                100% agree with you on the Chancellor. He's a wonk - a great interview for an article, conference panel discussion, or podcast interview. He talks about PASSHE in abstract messages. He's also never been a university president - so I have some doubts about his understanding of the details. Greenstein will talk about sports in the big picture immeasurables - opportunities for students, alumni engagement, community enrichment, etc. There's a reason tuition-dependent DIII schools almost never cut football - they plan in "net revenue per FTE", a factor I doubt any PASSHE schools use in planning. Oddly, PASSHE is starting to use net revenue per FTE in academic programs. I know PASSHE schools were told to measure ROI for athletic programs and I've seen Edinboro's which gives me confidence in the short-term. I just don't trust the chancellor to see or examine those details. Its almost as if PASSHE needs a number-crunching, bean-counting, desk jockey to be a very powerful, influential #2 person.

                Back to Cheyney, I still think they need to crunch the numbers on bringing back NCAA sports. It boosts enrollment - and net revenue. Plus they can run a program on the cheap by only scheduling regional DII schools for non-conference games like Lincoln, Bowie State, and some of the CACC schools. Their new corporate partnerships model should lend itself to finding someone to help fund major renovations of their facilities, which I believe are already in the works. Walton has been a godsend for Cheyney, but he doesn't always think about higher ed when it needs to be thought of as a university.
                If Cheyney did bring back sports, would you think they would try and rejoin the PSAC?

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                • I don't think athletics is a part of what's Cheyney's new focus is. If they bring back intercollegiate sports, that's a long ways away. They might shoot for some kind of robust intramurals program first. That institution has completely changed its focus.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Ram040506 View Post

                    If Cheyney did bring back sports, would you think they would try and rejoin the PSAC?
                    It depends. Like iupgroundhog just said, I don't think athletics fits into the vision Aaron Walton has for Cheyney. If I were running Cheyney, I would want to bring back athletics. I personally would want them back to NCAA D2 athletics because any athletic money is beneficial to the population they're focused on and athletic scholarships in PASSHE cost the university very little - just some costs to solicit or sponsor events. Ideally, the PSAC would be nice but if the CIAA would have them they would be a better fit since the CIAA is an all-HBCU conference.

                    I'd argue with Walton that you can have both NCAA athletics and an applied programs model that leans on corporate partnerships. They're not HBCUs or as small as Cheney, but there are many examples of applied focus universities sponsoring athletics: Robert Morris, NJIT, Stevens, etc. U Sciences and for a bit Philadelphia U. If anything, the corporate partnerships model can extend to include naming gifts for Cheyney athletic facilities. I'd have to think that given the location, Cheyney could make a killing on summer camps with upgraded facilities.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                      It depends. Like iupgroundhog just said, I don't think athletics fits into the vision Aaron Walton has for Cheyney. If I were running Cheyney, I would want to bring back athletics. I personally would want them back to NCAA D2 athletics because any athletic money is beneficial to the population they're focused on and athletic scholarships in PASSHE cost the university very little - just some costs to solicit or sponsor events. Ideally, the PSAC would be nice but if the CIAA would have them they would be a better fit since the CIAA is an all-HBCU conference.

                      I'd argue with Walton that you can have both NCAA athletics and an applied programs model that leans on corporate partnerships. They're not HBCUs or as small as Cheney, but there are many examples of applied focus universities sponsoring athletics: Robert Morris, NJIT, Stevens, etc. U Sciences and for a bit Philadelphia U. If anything, the corporate partnerships model can extend to include naming gifts for Cheyney athletic facilities. I'd have to think that given the location, Cheyney could make a killing on summer camps with upgraded facilities.
                      Cheyney is in a mode right now where they want to be able to say they are living up to expectations. This after decades of not living up to expectations.

                      I think they are on a good track right now and should stay the course. They don't want to be branching out into the things that everybody else does.

                      Comment


                      • In the hypothetical where Cheyney is on stable enough footing to support an athletics department, I do think the CIAA fits best as a home for them. The appeal of being in an HBCU conference is real when it comes to fan support, and I especially think that being in the same conference as Lincoln would be appealing.

                        Bluefield State has expressed interest in joining the CIAA as well, so they could be a potential joining partner if the CIAA wants to keep an even number. I've also suspected that Coppin St, Delaware St, and/or UMES might be destined for D2 eventually, though so far they have been adamant about staying in D1. Either way, I think there will be chances for Cheyney to join the CIAA down the line.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by EastStroud13 View Post
                          In the hypothetical where Cheyney is on stable enough footing to support an athletics department, I do think the CIAA fits best as a home for them. The appeal of being in an HBCU conference is real when it comes to fan support, and I especially think that being in the same conference as Lincoln would be appealing.

                          Bluefield State has expressed interest in joining the CIAA as well, so they could be a potential joining partner if the CIAA wants to keep an even number. I've also suspected that Coppin St, Delaware St, and/or UMES might be destined for D2 eventually, though so far they have been adamant about staying in D1. Either way, I think there will be chances for Cheyney to join the CIAA down the line.
                          I agree that the CIAA is probably the ideal conference for them. That guarantees a lot of play vs Lincoln (their true rival) and I imagine the travel is just as expensive as the PSAC. Adding Bluefield (and therefore maybe also WV State) could open up some recruiting opportunities for Cheyney on the other side of the state. Cheyney has no name recognition over here other than those of us with above average familiarity with PASSHE.

                          I imagine Coppin State could stay D1 - they don't have football so that basketball money probably helps a bit. But they're a similarly missioned HBCU (open admission). Delaware State could have long term trouble.

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                          • The State System is safe for another 4 years.

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                            • The State With Too Many Campuses

                              https://www.chronicle.com/article/th...id=gen_sign_in

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                              • Final fall enrollment ("headcount") released from PASSHE:
                                University Fall 2013 Fall 2014 Fall 2015 Fall 2016 Fall 2017 Fall 2018 Fall 2019 Fall 2020 Fall 2021 Fall 2022
                                Cheyney 1,212 1,022 711 746 755 469 618 627 642 706
                                Commonwealth 18,357 17,667 16,760 16,074 15,011 13,986 13,514 13,391 12,468 12,093
                                Bloomsburg 10,127 9,998 9,777 9,658 9,287 8,924 8,689 8,436 7,745 0
                                Lock Haven 5,260 4,917 4,607 4,220 3,827 3,425 3,162 3,163 2,920 0
                                Mansfield 2,970 2,752 2,376 2,196 1,897 1,637 1,663 1,792 1,803 0
                                East Stroudsburg 6,778 6,820 6,828 6,830 6,742 6,425 6,214 5,842 5,136 5,152
                                Indiana 14,925 14,571 14,035 13,114 12,562 11,581 10,636 10,067 9,308 8,832
                                Kutztown 9,513 9,218 9,000 8,513 8,329 8,309 8,199 7,892 7,675 7,469
                                Millersville 8,279 8,047 7,988 7,927 7,748 7,781 7,817 7,495 7,213 6,821
                                PennWest 21,421 20,527 19,772 18,958 18,588 17,015 16,191 15,669 14,477 12,780
                                California 8,243 7,978 7,854 7,553 7,788 7,312 6,842 6,885 6,512 0
                                Clarion 6,080 5,712 5,368 5,224 5,225 4,869 4,703 4,465 3,922 0
                                Edinboro 7,098 6,837 6,550 6,181 5,575 4,834 4,646 4,319 4,043 0
                                Shippensburg 7,548 7,355 7,058 6,989 6,581 6,408 6,096 6,130 5,668 5,164
                                Slippery Rock 8,347 8,495 8,628 8,881 8,895 8,824 8,806 8,876 8,424 8,243
                                West Chester 15,845 16,086 16,606 17,006 17,336 17,552 17,691 17,719 17,640 17,296
                                System Total 112,225 109,808 107,386 105,038 102,547 98,350 95,782 93,708 88,651 84,556
                                No matter what they try to tell the media or alumni, the two integrated universities will no longer be reporting as individual campuses.

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