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  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

    And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.
    Too many 4 year schools. Too many state-funded schools and way too many private schools. PA has roughly the same number of 4-year schools as New York with nearly half the population.

    Leave a comment:


  • boatcapt
    replied
    Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

    And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.
    Excess capacity is the end result. Actually closing schools is an effective way of addressing excess capacity but that's not an option. Does anyone believe PASSHE as a system is going to get back to enrolement levels of 10+ years ago based on the changes they are making? Remember, hope is not a belief.

    Leave a comment:


  • IUPbigINDIANS
    replied
    Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

    There's not excess capacity if we recognize that adult learners are a real market and the way of the future. Beyond tech and trades, very few fields have pathways that avoid college credentials. Excess capacity for traditional-aged students who plan to live on on campus.

    Student debt is MUCH higher than previous generations but hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years. Most student loan debt is held by people whose tuition costs crazy sums of money: doctors and lawyers. Less than 5% of all bachelors degree holders have $100k+ in student loans and when you remove those with MD and JD debt, its less than 1%.

    The biggest driver of Millennial and Gen Z debt is decreased state funding and construction debt. Boomer managers for years pushed renovations and construction to pad resumes and thinking it would give that school a leg up on its competition. It backfired because all the competition was doing the same thing.

    Small sample size but I personally know several kids (friends children) who are attending Duquesne and other similar schools ... with majors like nursing, marketing, etc. Granted, their parents largely look down at us lowly state schools, but the funny thing is the Duquesne nurse and the IUP nurse are going to get the same job and make the same amount of money.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

    I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

    Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

    At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.
    There's not excess capacity if we recognize that adult learners are a real market and the way of the future. Beyond tech and trades, very few fields have pathways that avoid college credentials. Excess capacity for traditional-aged students who plan to live on on campus.

    Student debt is MUCH higher than previous generations but hasn't changed much in the last 10-15 years. Most student loan debt is held by people whose tuition costs crazy sums of money: doctors and lawyers. Less than 5% of all bachelors degree holders have $100k+ in student loans and when you remove those with MD and JD debt, its less than 1%.

    The biggest driver of Millennial and Gen Z debt is decreased state funding and construction debt. Boomer managers for years pushed renovations and construction to pad resumes and thinking it would give that school a leg up on its competition. It backfired because all the competition was doing the same thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • IUPbigINDIANS
    replied
    Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

    I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

    Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

    At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.
    And, when you add it all up, it says we just have too many state schools in PA.

    Leave a comment:


  • boatcapt
    replied
    Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

    I tend to think the enrollment now is the 'normal' level for PASSHE and that the 2010 level was due to the education bubble.

    I am sure that some kids choose to work on gas lines or other areas too. I just don't think it's a main factor. It's demographic, cost, brand, etc.
    I agree that now is probably the normal level but the future HS graduation numbers are disturbing.

    Not unique to this situation, but folks always want to find the single "reason" for a negative situation when the real answer is often very complex. Is it lack of PA HS graduates? Yes, but it is so much more including higher tuitions, skyrocketting student debt, competition from the trades, competition from discounted private schools, stagnate state budgets, and a realization that you really don't need a bachelors degree to succeed.

    At the end of the day, all the reasons manafest in excess capacity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

    to ease certain people's fears, I guess. My gut feeling is that there are a small but vocal group of Faculty and parents expressing their fear for the upcoming Fall semester, I expect it to change since if the state mandates are over at that point, it will be pointless after the first weekend, and difficult to enforce. I doubt it will have much impact on enrollment one way or another.
    The Trump Country folk surrounding IUP will absolutely not just reject it they'll also cry to any right-leaning news source just like the kid thrown out of class a couple years ago. Unfortunately it looks like an unforced error on IUP's part.

    Leave a comment:


  • ironmaniup
    replied
    Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post


    Are they required to wear them in the campus-owned dorms, too?

    There won't be a mask seen in town other than those classrooms so what's the freaking point?
    to ease certain people's fears, I guess. My gut feeling is that there are a small but vocal group of Faculty and parents expressing their fear for the upcoming Fall semester, I expect it to change since if the state mandates are over at that point, it will be pointless after the first weekend, and difficult to enforce. I doubt it will have much impact on enrollment one way or another.

    Leave a comment:


  • IUPbigINDIANS
    replied
    Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post
    I would imagine that indoors on campus would cover housing. Now, in a room yourself...people likely won't wear them.

    But yes...anywhere they go won't require masks...except on campus indoors. Seems pointless.

    It's time to put the pandemic in the rear view mirror...and not try to cling to it.

    I can already see it now at Miller Stadium ... every 6th seat and a mask requirement.

    Leave a comment:


  • complaint_hopeful
    replied
    I would imagine that indoors on campus would cover housing. Now, in a room yourself...people likely won't wear them.

    But yes...anywhere they go won't require masks...except on campus indoors. Seems pointless.

    It's time to put the pandemic in the rear view mirror...and not try to cling to it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post


    Are they required to wear them in the campus-owned dorms, too?

    There won't be a mask seen in town other than those classrooms so what's the freaking point?
    I bet they'll be required for indoor common spaces similar to what we had until this month. But enforcement is something I don't get. If campus being public land means state law leads policy (for example you can carry outdoors on PASSHE campuses) then I don't see how they can enforce or even enact this policy. I think its 100% reasonable to require students living in the dorms to have the vaccine or complete a waiver just like they do for meningitis. College students live, learn, and socialize in groups and this is a communicable virus.

    However, this article's author does have a reputation for unintentionally making a mountain out of a molehill. He's the only full-time higher ed beat reporter on this side of the state. His daughter attends Edinboro. He sometimes has to go finding stories to write and PASSHE can't block him from getting info (the unions blab & 99% of operations are subject to FOIA). Its possible that someone at IUP tipped him off to this issue (when probed IUP says nothing is final) and he ran with it.

    Leave a comment:


  • IUPbigINDIANS
    replied
    Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

    The being forced to wear masks is the part that might cost students.

    I don't get it. So if I'm vaccinated, and the student next to me isnt...why do either of us need masks? I'm protected from them. They're protected from me...but not other unvaccinated people. Same as going to Walmart or any other place.

    Now if a bad variant comes out, this might all change.

    Are they required to wear them in the campus-owned dorms, too?

    There won't be a mask seen in town other than those classrooms so what's the freaking point?

    Leave a comment:


  • Fightingscot82
    replied
    Originally posted by complaint_hopeful View Post

    What bothers me about the salary...is they are VP positions duplicated at PASSHE who has no students. Then, these people basically get to cherry pick what they work on and let schools make dumb decisions and do their own thing. Then, when the dumb decision is called out...pr says that schools make their own decisions.

    Then, why have a VP of <insert name> at PASSHE if the campus VP and President make the decisions?

    And ultimately the schools get charged back for these people. If they provided value, it would be a different story.
    The VPs at the campus level manage divisions of the individual university. Management structure is functional similar to the military. Title/rank changes in the management/staff part of higher ed isn't earned without a vacancy. The Vice Chancellors at the PASSHE level manage system-wide initiatives. They don't dictate policy. The system is not very systemic (something Greenstein actually talked about when he arrived) like SUNY. Most of the PASSHE managers are report makers and number crunchers. The only ones that seem to truly dictate policy (indirectly) are the in house attorneys. Given the lack of innovation & uniformity throughout the industry, there are a lot of people who don't know much about how their counterparts do the same job.
    Last edited by Fightingscot82; 06-23-2021, 07:47 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • complaint_hopeful
    replied
    Originally posted by ironmaniup View Post

    The meningitis vaccine requirement is a state law. Covid requirements that are not state law cannot be enforced. They can't even ban carrying guns on campus if you are legally entitled.

    At the same time, I'm not sure it will have any real impact on enrollment. Most College age students are not vaccinated, many already had covid, and with the WHO recommending that 18 yr olds not get vaccinated because of an emerging risk of myocarditis, I'm not sure a requirement is something the majority of students and parents would like.
    The being forced to wear masks is the part that might cost students.

    I don't get it. So if I'm vaccinated, and the student next to me isnt...why do either of us need masks? I'm protected from them. They're protected from me...but not other unvaccinated people. Same as going to Walmart or any other place.

    Now if a bad variant comes out, this might all change.

    Leave a comment:


  • complaint_hopeful
    replied
    Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post
    I'm not bothered by how much they make. That's in line with what VPs are paid. They also don't get the perks of the president. If you don't pay market salary, you get bad candidates and/or you have frequent turnover.

    I agree that there should have been consistent policy across the system. IUP should also have provided more information to justify their decision. The state says they can't mandate immunization. Fine, but say that. If immunization rates of students and the community are lower than anticipated, say that too. Nothing is secret at these schools so they might as well just give all the information up front.
    What bothers me about the salary...is they are VP positions duplicated at PASSHE who has no students. Then, these people basically get to cherry pick what they work on and let schools make dumb decisions and do their own thing. Then, when the dumb decision is called out...pr says that schools make their own decisions.

    Then, why have a VP of <insert name> at PASSHE if the campus VP and President make the decisions?

    And ultimately the schools get charged back for these people. If they provided value, it would be a different story.

    Leave a comment:

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