Clarion HC

[Fightingscot82]

Will Clarion even have a Football team in 3 years? No one can answer that with any degree of certainty right now.

Yes. The school can't afford to lose their tuition and the NCAA will most likely approve the three campus athletic department model since its already in place in several other schools.

[PSAC Statman]

Weibel was being paid $87,450. That's the second-lowest of the PASSHE schools but I'd argue competitive pay for a D2 football coach. Are there higher-paid? Yes. But there's also a lot lower. Shepherd's Ernie McCook was paid a little less in 2020. Paying Weibel an additional $25,000 to get him to PASSHE average ($112,691) isn't going to do as much for the on-field performance than $25,000 in scholarship dollars would.

100% agree with everything you said. I think it is a combo of things being so low. Word on the street is they had to buy his last 2 years of salary to get rid of him. That is about $174,000......should have found $174,000 to give him in schollies and see his record then.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Weibel was being paid $87,450. That's the second-lowest of the PASSHE schools but I'd argue competitive pay for a D2 football coach. Are there higher-paid? Yes. But there's also a lot lower. Shepherd's Ernie McCook was paid a little less in 2020. Paying Weibel an additional $25,000 to get him to PASSHE average ($112,691) isn't going to do as much for the on-field performance than $25,000 in scholarship dollars would.

True. But, $90,000/year in Clarion goes pretty far. That would likely put you in the wealthy category up in those parts.

This job is messy on many levels. As WarriorVoice just pointed out, there's the giant elephant in the room regarding the future of the school and program.

The new coach isn't picking things up in working order. The relatively little talent on the roster from last year is all gone. This is a total rebuild. You can't pull the quick fix via the transfer route because there's no money. You're already going to be stuck with a 'leftovers' recruiting class due to the timing.

So, I'd sure want to know what the expectations are before signing the dotted line. I'm not sure Nick Saban could take the job and have a .500 record within 3-4 years.

All of that said, I'm sure they got plenty of applicants. There are only so many head jobs out there. However, as is typical with such openings of this caliber, you're pool is going to be the young up-and-comer looking for that first job -- or, the old retread looking for one last dance.

Clarion isn't for everybody, but it is a nice town and community. If you dig the outdoors lifestyle, ... few places are better.

Can the AD find a guy who has experience in building a program with very little resources? Weibel was always able to get talent in there. His starting units could play with most teams. Depth is the killer. The drop from Clarions 1's to the 2's was extreme -- much worse than the teams it was playing against. All of his teams were much better at the start of each year than the end. As the inevitable injuries pile up during the course of the season ... that depth just got exposed yearly.

[Fightingscot82]

100% agree with everything you said. I think it is a combo of things being so low. Word on the street is they had to buy his last 2 years of salary to get rid of him. That is about $174,000......should have found $174,000 to give him in schollies and see his record then.

If he had two years remaining, he got remaining salary, payouts for unused sick & vacation time (current plus those two years), retirement contributions, and health insurance contributions. When Edinboro did this 6 years ago to Scott Browning (making a little more) it cost $450k and he was the second-highest paid state employee. Its not something Clarion took lightly and most likely is what caused the delay.

[PSAC Statman]

True. But, $90,000/year in Clarion goes pretty far. That would likely put you in the wealthy category up in those parts.

This job is messy on many levels. As WarriorVoice just pointed out, there's the giant elephant in the room regarding the future of the school and program.

The new coach isn't picking things up in working order. The relatively little talent on the roster from last year is all gone. This is a total rebuild. You can't pull the quick fix via the transfer route because there's no money. You're already going to be stuck with a 'leftovers' recruiting class due to the timing.

So, I'd sure want to know what the expectations are before signing the dotted line. I'm not sure Nick Saban could take the job and have a .500 record within 3-4 years.

All of that said, I'm sure they got plenty of applicants. There are only so many head jobs out there. However, as is typical with such openings of this caliber, you're pool is going to be the young up-and-comer looking for that first job -- or, the old retread looking for one last dance.

Clarion isn't for everybody, but it is a nice town and community. If you dig the outdoors lifestyle, ... few places are better.

Can the AD find a guy who has experience in building a program with very little resources? Weibel was always able to get talent in there. His starting units could play with most teams. Depth is the killer. The drop from Clarions 1's to the 2's was extreme -- much worse than the teams it was playing against. All of his teams were much better at the start of each year than the end. As the inevitable injuries pile up during the course of the season ... that depth just got exposed yearly.

It has to be a job where you can get someone that can think outside the box. Think the Wing T, think the guy in Tennessee that doesn't punt and onside kicks the entire time, think not having redshirts and having all your money on the field. It reminds me of the quote in Moneyball.....if we try to run things like the Yankees in here, we will surely lose to the Yankees out there. So in Clarions case.....if you try to run your program like IUP and Cal, you will lose to them on the field.....you don't have the resources to try and play the game like they do.

[WarriorVoice]

Yes. The school can't afford to lose their tuition and the NCAA will most likely approve the three campus athletic department model since its already in place in several other schools.

I don't think the NCAA cares about schools losing tuition. They have vetoed other proposals for contraction in other states. Don't be too sure it won't happen in PA.

[CUlater]

The criminal thing was what was aloud to happen to this program over the last few years under the folks in charge. There is a huge misconception out there that the funding isn't there to win. That is wrong, if the numbers were opened up to what the total package is everyone would be asking how the heck they couldn't compete THIS YEAR. Remember only a portion of the funds attached to scholarships are reported. This was a direct result of poor management, poor decisions, and a poor coaching staff. This year has really changed the perception of what Clarion has been. Clarion hasn't been a juggernaut by any stretch of the imagination. BUT they have typically been a team that competes against the middle of the road teams, gets up for a good game here and there against the top teams, and typically puts an absolute beating on the Millersville's/Lock Haven's/ and Seton Hills of the world. record typically ends up 3-4 wins with a winning season mixed in every 4-5 years. This isn't Cheyney, this isn't Lock Haven.

[Fightingscot82]

I don't think the NCAA cares about schools losing tuition. They have vetoed other proposals for contraction in other states. Don't be too sure it won't happen in PA.

The tuition remark was to cover the school cutting football. I haven't heard a single contact I have with informed NCAA knowledge who has reason to doubt the NCAA will approve. Its really down to proving some degree of autonomy. The conference is 100% on board and that will weigh heavily as well.

[Fightingscot82]

The criminal thing was what was aloud to happen to this program over the last few years under the folks in charge. There is a huge misconception out there that the funding isn't there to win. That is wrong, if the numbers were opened up to what the total package is everyone would be asking how the heck they couldn't compete THIS YEAR. Remember only a portion of the funds attached to scholarships are reported. This was a direct result of poor management, poor decisions, and a poor coaching staff. This year has really changed the perception of what Clarion has been. Clarion hasn't been a juggernaut by any stretch of the imagination. BUT they have typically been a team that competes against the middle of the road teams, gets up for a good game here and there against the top teams, and typically puts an absolute beating on the Millersville's/Lock Haven's/ and Seton Hills of the world. record typically ends up 3-4 wins with a winning season mixed in every 4-5 years. This isn't Cheyney, this isn't Lock Haven.

Ehh. The funds weren't there. I believe in the West they were 7 or 8 out of 8 teams in scholarship funds. Its not like every football player was getting housing & meal plan fees waived for those extra non-reportable funds. If Clarion offers a kid $2,000, IUP is going to ask him how much Clarion gave him and they'll beat it. Kid chooses the winning program with more money. I know this happens for transfers, too. You can transfer to a better team and also magically get more money. These programs aren't rolling in cash. You can tell because its such a process to upgrade facilities. If a coach has the option between $50k for a football office refresh or $50k for scholarships they're taking the latter. But more often than not that money isn't there. There aren't shadow community members or shadow alumni funding the athletic department. This isn't "Gary West" Liberty University.

[PSAC Statman]

Ehh. The funds weren't there. I believe in the West they were 7 or 8 out of 8 teams in scholarship funds. Its not like every football player was getting housing & meal plan fees waived for those extra non-reportable funds. If Clarion offers a kid $2,000, IUP is going to ask him how much Clarion gave him and they'll beat it. Kid chooses the winning program with more money. I know this happens for transfers, too. You can transfer to a better team and also magically get more money. These programs aren't rolling in cash. You can tell because its such a process to upgrade facilities. If a coach has the option between $50k for a football office refresh or $50k for scholarships they're taking the latter. But more often than not that money isn't there. There aren't shadow community members or shadow alumni funding the athletic department. This isn't "Gary West" Liberty University.

I was just about to say this and believe the CULater is a donor that thinks they are actually making a difference. Look CW record is what it is and IMO his choice of assistant coaches were certainly some head scratchers. For that alone a change needed to be made. But what I think many are asking......do you trust the decision makers to make a correct decision. I guess we will see when the hire is made. There are plenty of people out there off the Luke Coaching Tree that may not be interested because the size, but surely knows a young up and coming coach that might have an interest. You have to have a tireless recruiter in this position because Clarion does not sell itself. Gone is the game day atmosphere at football games, basketball games are basically parents and a few students, wrestling has its moments and at least tries to make it a fun atmosphere with things like the pin gong......but overall it isn't a place that is going to sell itself.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I was just about to say this and believe the CULater is a donor that thinks they are actually making a difference. Look CW record is what it is and IMO his choice of assistant coaches were certainly some head scratchers. For that alone a change needed to be made. But what I think many are asking......do you trust the decision makers to make a correct decision. I guess we will see when the hire is made. There are plenty of people out there off the Luke Coaching Tree that may not be interested because the size, but surely knows a young up and coming coach that might have an interest. You have to have a tireless recruiter in this position because Clarion does not sell itself. Gone is the game day atmosphere at football games, basketball games are basically parents and a few students, wrestling has its moments and at least tries to make it a fun atmosphere with things like the pin gong......but overall it isn't a place that is going to sell itself.

Tippin used to be insane back the day. That was one of the loudest venues in the league. Gary Edwards, IUP's former coach, told me that was his least favorite gym to visit. I was at games there 20-some years ago when the bottom and top portions were just about filled up. With those low ceilings it was deafening. You'd have a headache after the game.

Of course, Clarion had a consistently strong program back then but has been down in the dumps for mostly the past decade.

I was at the IUP football game up there this year. It was on ALF. The town was rocking ... the stadium was a funeral parlor.

[PSAC Statman]

Tippin used to be insane back the day. That was one of the loudest venues in the league. Gary Edwards, IUP's former coach, told me that was his least favorite gym to visit. I was at games there 20-some years ago when the bottom and top portions were just about filled up. With those low ceilings it was deafening. You'd have a headache after the game.

Of course, Clarion had a consistently strong program back then but has been down in the dumps for mostly the past decade.

I was at the IUP football game up there this year. It was on ALF. The town was rocking ... the stadium was a funeral parlor.

1. During the Late 80's-early 90's the wrestling matches were insane.
2. Hoops during the Kwame Morton Era was off the hook.
3. All the High School Basketball Games they hosted packed the rafters.

On the other side of things.....whoever allowed IUP to come to town for Homecoming should be fired. Don't care if they worked for Clarion or the PSAC. When you are down and on life support mode you don't allow The Hulk to come to town to finish you off. And don't give me a "that can't be done".....the B1G a few weeks ago changed their entire schedule for next year.

Winning will fix this, it always does.....but you have to find the right person with the right mindset to get it done.

And that right person has to have the right mindset and the right ideas. Again, coming in and trying to run the same offense as others, when you don't have the horses, won't work.

[CUlater]

Ehh. The funds weren't there. I believe in the West they were 7 or 8 out of 8 teams in scholarship funds. Its not like every football player was getting housing & meal plan fees waived for those extra non-reportable funds. If Clarion offers a kid $2,000, IUP is going to ask him how much Clarion gave him and they'll beat it. Kid chooses the winning program with more money. I know this happens for transfers, too. You can transfer to a better team and also magically get more money. These programs aren't rolling in cash. You can tell because its such a process to upgrade facilities. If a coach has the option between $50k for a football office refresh or $50k for scholarships they're taking the latter. But more often than not that money isn't there. There aren't shadow community members or shadow alumni funding the athletic department. This isn't "Gary West" Liberty University.

ok so how many equivalencies are we saying that you need to be competitive in the West?

[Ram040506]

ok so how many equivalencies are we saying that you need to be competitive in the West?

I'd say you need at minimum 15. And you probably can't miss. Rock/Cal and IUP are all in the mid to high 20's I think.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

I'd say you need at minimum 15. And you probably can't miss. Rock/Cal and IUP are all in the mid to high 20's I think.

Just waiting for the West Chester crowd to tell us they do it with 1 scholarship and 107 walk-ons.