"HURST OUT OF PSAC?

[Fightingscot82]

Not necessarily true. Most state school's athletic scholarships don't work like the PASSHE.

Its pretty common that state schools can't use state money on athletic scholarships. That might mean that they come from a fee or there's some sort of delineation between appropriation and tuition. Some schools like Grand Valley, Northwest Missouri, and West Texas A&M generate so much external revenue they fund from there. If there are states that allow for discounting for athletic scholarships at state schools, its likely in the Southeast. I've just never heard of a single one.

I think not until you get into the upper echelon of FCS do you see a private school fundraising and using fundraised dollars on athletic scholarships.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Its pretty common that state schools can't use state money on athletic scholarships. That might mean that they come from a fee or there's some sort of delineation between appropriation and tuition. Some schools like Grand Valley, Northwest Missouri, and West Texas A&M generate so much external revenue they fund from there. If there are states that allow for discounting for athletic scholarships at state schools, its likely in the Southeast. I've just never heard of a single one.

I think not until you get into the upper echelon of FCS do you see a private school fundraising and using fundraised dollars on athletic scholarships.

I've said it before but our schools do a terrible job when it comes to athletic fundraising.

IUP used to blow me up on the phone and in the mail. I haven't been 'asked' to give a dollar in probably 5-6 years. How many people are just randomly sending money in to the athletic department? Not many. It blows my mind 'athletic fundraiser' isn't a full-time job at these schools.

I don't know the age breakdowns of all the league fan bases, but I can say with 100% confidence the core 'money fans' at IUP are predominantly in 62+ range. There's a handful in the younger brackets but not many. They better start finding some. The core group gets older by the day.

[Fightingscot82]

I've said it before but our schools do a terrible job when it comes to athletic fundraising.

IUP used to blow me up on the phone and in the mail. I haven't been 'asked' to give a dollar in probably 5-6 years. How many people are just randomly sending money in to the athletic department? Not many. It blows my mind 'athletic fundraiser' isn't a full-time job at these schools.

I don't know the age breakdowns of all the league fan bases, but I can say with 100% confidence the core 'money fans' at IUP are predominantly in 62+ range. There's a handful in the younger brackets but not many. They better start finding some. The core group gets older by the day.

With you 100%.

Everyone has a golf outing. Great. That's $10-20k. Everyone has an annual fund drive. Great.
Everyone has a day of giving with strong social media engagement. Great.

But if anyone, athletes should know where that scholarship money came from and feel an obligation to do the same for current and future athletes.

[Ship69]

I've said it before but our schools do a terrible job when it comes to athletic fundraising.

IUP used to blow me up on the phone and in the mail. I haven't been 'asked' to give a dollar in probably 5-6 years. How many people are just randomly sending money in to the athletic department? Not many. It blows my mind 'athletic fundraiser' isn't a full-time job at these schools.

I don't know the age breakdowns of all the league fan bases, but I can say with 100% confidence the core 'money fans' at IUP are predominantly in 62+ range. There's a handful in the younger brackets but not many. They better start finding some. The core group gets older by the day.

People in our society can still be very generous one-on-one or in small groups, but as a society we seem to be less and less concerned with the welfare of our country as a whole and the future of our young people. As you say, a lot of donors now are in my age range (old), but even there things seem to be changing. You see this stuff online about how people shouldn't have to pay taxes because they've retired. When I was growing up in the '50s not everything was sweetness and light (more bigotry, etc.), but I don't recall ever hearing an adult say he shouldn't pay school taxes because he didn't have a kid in school. I hear that quite often these days. There is a lot of an "I've got mine and to hell with the rest of you" attitude out there now. The social media wasteland hasn't helped matters as they've become primarily misinformation propaganda sites.

[Ram040506]

People in our society can still be very generous one-on-one or in small groups, but as a society we seem to be less and less concerned with the welfare of our country as a whole and the future of our young people. As you say, a lot of donors now are in my age range (old), but even there things seem to be changing. You see this stuff online about how people shouldn't have to pay taxes because they've retired. When I was growing up in the '50s not everything was sweetness and light (more bigotry, etc.), but I don't recall ever hearing an adult say he shouldn't pay school taxes because he didn't have a kid in school. I hear that quite often these days. There is a lot of an "I've got mine and to hell with the rest of you" attitude out there now. The social media wasteland hasn't helped matters as they've become primarily misinformation propaganda sites.

This is opening probably a can of worms, but I think a lot of that mindset has to do with inflation and wages not rising in concert together over the last 30-40 years. People feel less concerned about the welfare of the country because they are struggling to keep up themselves.

[Fightingscot82]

People in our society can still be very generous one-on-one or in small groups, but as a society we seem to be less and less concerned with the welfare of our country as a whole and the future of our young people. As you say, a lot of donors now are in my age range (old), but even there things seem to be changing. You see this stuff online about how people shouldn't have to pay taxes because they've retired. When I was growing up in the '50s not everything was sweetness and light (more bigotry, etc.), but I don't recall ever hearing an adult say he shouldn't pay school taxes because he didn't have a kid in school. I hear that quite often these days. There is a lot of an "I've got mine and to hell with the rest of you" attitude out there now. The social media wasteland hasn't helped matters as they've become primarily misinformation propaganda sites.

I think our society has completely lost its sense of community and collective support. Community and civic group membership is at an all time low: scouts, college fraternities & sororities, their adult version fraternal lodges, and other community service groups are all struggling for members. Most youth sports associations can't fill their needs for parents to volunteer. The further removed we are from the Greatest Generation experiences, we've forgotten what got us through the Great Depression and World War II: collective sacrifice and service. Charities used to take care of the disadvantaged, the helpless, the poor, the elderly. All gone now for big business or government social welfare (no commentary, just fact). We forgot the sense of obligation that a couple bucks sacrificed from each of us adds up pretty quickly to do some good. The internet enabled home and social media machine has made us so individualistic and focused on ONLY what we want to consume that it doesn't make sense why $100 to the Alma Mater is good practice and nobody explains that my $100 added up with 99 other $100 donations from alumni is a huge number. It doesn't help how much we celebrate those gonzo donations that make many think only a million dollar gift makes a difference.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

With you 100%.

Everyone has a golf outing. Great. That's $10-20k. Everyone has an annual fund drive. Great.
Everyone has a day of giving with strong social media engagement. Great.

But if anyone, athletes should know where that scholarship money came from and feel an obligation to do the same for current and future athletes.

Money doesn't cure all ... but it dang sure can help you win a lot on this level. More money (typically) equals better players. Better players (typically) equate to more wins.

These shiny transfers cost money. The top high school recruits generally follow the the coin.

However, unless you happen to luck in to a whale, you (our programs) have to do this the hard way. Pick up the phones. Wine and dine the larger donors. It's a full-time position -- one that could pay off big time (wins).

What could Tort or Lutz (or any of them) do with the ability to spend another 8-10 full equivalencies?

PSAC teams all lack quality depth - some lack it much, much more than others.

People will donate. The higher-end donors - even at this level - are out there. People want to feel like they are apart of the program. But, you gotta freaking ask them.

[ctrabs74]

I’m very curious who the two PA schools are. Lincoln seems likely given that they’re already D2, a state-related school with football, and play our teams fairly regularly as non-conference games in both FB and BB. Would they want to get out of a black conference just to cut down on the travel budget though?

As crazy as it sounds, probably not. I'm sure having at least three PSAC rivals (Kutztown, Millersville, West Chester) within a shorter distance of their nearest CIAA rival (Bowie State) - and the three PSAC schools I mentioned are less than 90 minutes away - not to mention the fact that their other PSAC East football rivals (Bloomsburg, East Stroudsburg, Lock Haven, Shepherd and Shippensburg*) are closer to Lincoln than their second closest CIAA rival - Virginia Union - is a great selling point for Lincoln to make a move.

I know state-related funding schemes are completely different beasts from PASSHE funding schemes, but I wouldn't be shocked if funding from Harrisburg also ends up playing a role in Lincoln's athletic future.

However, can the PSAC revenue streams (such as they are) offset whatever revenue Lincoln gets from the CIAA basketball tournament or whatever other CIAA revenue streams are available (if any)? Plus, I think the HBCU status of Lincoln might be (in theory) a great selling point to stay in the CIAA.

On the flip side, the CIAA has an odd number of schools for football (11 at present) after St. Augustine's were forced out of the NCAA (and, by extension, the CIAA) due to their ongoing accreditation and financial issues. Take that for what it's worth.

Then again, would anyone have thought that Hampton or NC A&T would've left the MEAC for the Big South, then ultimately the CAA? Or, for that matter, Tennessee State joining the Ohio Valley Conference (it's easy to forget that Tennessee State is an HBCU).

* - Presuming the rumors about Lincoln leaving the CIAA for the PSAC are true - and, to be honest, I don't put much stock into a lot of these rumors - either Lock Haven, Shepherd or Ship would move to the PSAC West, and I wouldn't be shocked if Shepherd made the move this time around instead of Haven or Ship since Shepherd is the furthest west of the three.

[ctrabs74]

It may just be me, but I’d like a school that offers football. My personal favorites to be added would be: Fairmont, Charleston, or Frostburg. I don’t think any of the other schools would add any value. Wheeling or West Liberty would only be good for travel.

From the Indiana Gazette article linked earlier in the thread:

[PSAC Commissioner Steve] Murray also said that he had conversations with two schools from West Virginia, but both declined to begin the process of applying for membership in the PSAC.

That would explicitly rule out Charleston, Fairmont, West Liberty, or Wheeling, though not necessarily Frostburg State.

[IUPHawks24]

Its pretty common that state schools can't use state money on athletic scholarships. That might mean that they come from a fee or there's some sort of delineation between appropriation and tuition. Some schools like Grand Valley, Northwest Missouri, and West Texas A&M generate so much external revenue they fund from there. If there are states that allow for discounting for athletic scholarships at state schools, its likely in the Southeast. I've just never heard of a single one.

I think not until you get into the upper echelon of FCS do you see a private school fundraising and using fundraised dollars on athletic scholarships.

I don’t want to speak to those specific schools, since I’m not privy to the details, but I don’t think any of them generate enough external revenue to fully fund their sports scholarships. If we assume Northwest Missouri fully funds football and men’s basketball, that’s 46 equivalencies. Multiply by 2 for Title IX, you’re looking at least 92 equivalencies.

Let’s say each equivalency is worth $25k, that’s 2.4 million dollars that needs to be raised every year. What if you come up short? Do you cut scholarships for a year? When is that information available to coaches?

I think it’s much more plausible the $ is coming from an athletic fee or it’s getting built into the athletic budget in a different way. These smaller division I state schools (Summit, Big Sky, America East, etc) aren’t fundraising anywhere close to the dollar value of the athletic scholarships they are granting.

[IUPNation]

I don’t want to speak to those specific schools, since I’m not privy to the details, but I don’t think any of them generate enough external revenue to fully fund their sports scholarships. If we assume Northwest Missouri fully funds football and men’s basketball, that’s 46 equivalencies. Multiply by 2 for Title IX, you’re looking at least 92 equivalencies.

Let’s say each equivalency is worth $25k, that’s 2.4 million dollars that needs to be raised every year. What if you come up short? Do you cut scholarships for a year? When is that information available to coaches?

I think it’s much more plausible the $ is coming from an athletic fee or it’s getting built into the athletic budget in a different way. These smaller division I state schools (Summit, Big Sky, America East, etc) aren’t fundraising anywhere close to the dollar value of the athletic scholarships they are granting.

I heard at one time Northwest Misery was spending well over 2 million on foosball.

Remember these flyover country schools do not have as many sports as Pee Sack schools.

[TheBigCat2192]

As crazy as it sounds, probably not. I'm sure having at least three PSAC rivals (Kutztown, Millersville, West Chester) within a shorter distance of their nearest CIAA rival (Bowie State) - and the three PSAC schools I mentioned are less than 90 minutes away - not to mention the fact that their other PSAC East football rivals (Bloomsburg, East Stroudsburg, Lock Haven, Shepherd and Shippensburg*) are closer to Lincoln than their second closest CIAA rival - Virginia Union - is a great selling point for Lincoln to make a move.

I know state-related funding schemes are completely different beasts from PASSHE funding schemes, but I wouldn't be shocked if funding from Harrisburg also ends up playing a role in Lincoln's athletic future.

However, can the PSAC revenue streams (such as they are) offset whatever revenue Lincoln gets from the CIAA basketball tournament or whatever other CIAA revenue streams are available (if any)? Plus, I think the HBCU status of Lincoln might be (in theory) a great selling point to stay in the CIAA.

On the flip side, the CIAA has an odd number of schools for football (11 at present) after St. Augustine's were forced out of the NCAA (and, by extension, the CIAA) due to their ongoing accreditation and financial issues. Take that for what it's worth.

Then again, would anyone have thought that Hampton or NC A&T would've left the MEAC for the Big South, then ultimately the CAA? Or, for that matter, Tennessee State joining the Ohio Valley Conference (it's easy to forget that Tennessee State is an HBCU).

* - Presuming the rumors about Lincoln leaving the CIAA for the PSAC are true - and, to be honest, I don't put much stock into a lot of these rumors - either Lock Haven, Shepherd or Ship would move to the PSAC West, and I wouldn't be shocked if Shepherd made the move this time around instead of Haven or Ship since Shepherd is the furthest west of the three.

I used some poor phrasing there. When I said “Lincoln seems likely” I should have said “Lincoln is likely one of the schools that the PSAC talked to” more so than “Lincoln is likely one of the two applicants.” They fit what the conference is looking for so I assumed Murray & co. would at least give them a call.

[Ship69]

This is opening probably a can of worms, but I think a lot of that mindset has to do with inflation and wages not rising in concert together over the last 30-40 years. People feel less concerned about the welfare of the country because they are struggling to keep up themselves.

We had higher inflation and much higher interest rates in the early '80s than we do now. In the '50s, tax rates were up to 90 percent in the top income brackets, and it was one of most propsperous times of our history. People didn't eat out as much, usually had one black-and-white TV and did without a lot of things we consider essential now. We've heard for years about how any change in tax policy is "class warfare" or Marxism because wealth would be redistributed. Wealth has been redistributed the past 30 years, and it has been redistributed toward the wealth. Nineteen individuals now control 2 percent of the country's total wealth — think about that. Many of our legislators are moaning about Shapiro's proposed $50 million budget. Elon Musk controls enough wealth by himself to fund that for about 8 years. As for me, I'm a retiree who worked in relatively low-paying print journalism jobs most of my life, but I'm always glad to contribute what I can to our local schools and certainly to my PASSHE university. There is no better investment for our future.

[Fightingscot82]

I would venture to assume that Grand Valley might be the closest of any school to be fully funded at D2 levels in all sports - and they may be by themselves. Most schools struggle to find external funding. Its why they stay D2. America East is primarily private schools who can just budget in the discounting like a car dealership. But the other conferences you mention are all D1, so they get March Madness payouts. Its not huge money but for many smaller schools, enough to make up most of the gap needed to be D1.

Northwest Missouri resembles a PSAC school on paper but upon greater inspection not at all. The Maryville community is fully invested in the university because they're so isolated. The list of corporate sponsors is astounding. Its like almost every business donates to Bearcat football. There's also a ton of fan money flowing through athletics. Their football season tickets? $100-$300 a pop plus fees. Single game tickets range from $14-35 depending on advance or walk up. Men's basketball is only a little less. And when Northwest is winning (most years) their facilities are packed. Isolated schools with excellent community engagement (read: sponsorships) tend to have a lot more behind the scenes revenue generation. Amazingly parking is free.

What's killing us is the perception that the universities are failing at worst and not worthy of our primary support at best. Granted, some kind of are. But over the last 15 years alumni giving as been decimated. It wasn't great, but those small gifts add up to equal the number of regular bigger gifts (not the gonzo Kopchik sized gifts). Most PASSHE schools at their enrollment peaks in 2010 were around 7% alumni giving. Giving meaning donates even a dollar or attended a paid fundraising event like a golf outing. That's not great. The average for 2023 (latest stats available) is 4%. The merged schools except Bloomsburg are sub 2% and I bet most of the annual giving is athletics. Schools like Grand Valley and Northwest Missouri can also thrive in the little brother role whereas for whatever reason that doesn't really work in PA. The only exception I can think of is probably Villanova but they can do better than most because Temple football is such a non-factor in SEPA.

[IUPHawks24]

I would venture to assume that Grand Valley might be the closest of any school to be fully funded at D2 levels in all sports - and they may be by themselves. Most schools struggle to find external funding. Its why they stay D2. America East is primarily private schools who can just budget in the discounting like a car dealership. But the other conferences you mention are all D1, so they get March Madness payouts. Its not huge money but for many smaller schools, enough to make up most of the gap needed to be D1.

Northwest Missouri resembles a PSAC school on paper but upon greater inspection not at all. The Maryville community is fully invested in the university because they're so isolated. The list of corporate sponsors is astounding. Its like almost every business donates to Bearcat football. There's also a ton of fan money flowing through athletics. Their football season tickets? $100-$300 a pop plus fees. Single game tickets range from $14-35 depending on advance or walk up. Men's basketball is only a little less. And when Northwest is winning (most years) their facilities are packed. Isolated schools with excellent community engagement (read: sponsorships) tend to have a lot more behind the scenes revenue generation. Amazingly parking is free.

What's killing us is the perception that the universities are failing at worst and not worthy of our primary support at best. Granted, some kind of are. But over the last 15 years alumni giving as been decimated. It wasn't great, but those small gifts add up to equal the number of regular bigger gifts (not the gonzo Kopchik sized gifts). Most PASSHE schools at their enrollment peaks in 2010 were around 7% alumni giving. Giving meaning donates even a dollar or attended a paid fundraising event like a golf outing. That's not great. The average for 2023 (latest stats available) is 4%. The merged schools except Bloomsburg are sub 2% and I bet most of the annual giving is athletics. Schools like Grand Valley and Northwest Missouri can also thrive in the little brother role whereas for whatever reason that doesn't really work in PA. The only exception I can think of is probably Villanova but they can do better than most because Temple football is such a non-factor in SEPA.

Every single America East school is public with the exception of Bryant.

The March Madness payouts are approximately $2 million per game for the conference over 6 years- roughly $350,000 per year. If a conference has 10 teams, that's 35k * 6 = roughly $200,000 per school annually, per conference win. When FDU got to the Round of 32 a few years back, they received 3 win shares for the NEC, so those schools are seeing a substantial revenue bump over thru 2028, if I understand it correctly. But that money isn't bridging the gap between revenue and the costs of doing business in Division I. The schools are subsidizing it in someway.

Again, I don't have the specific information, but I would be shocked if NW Mo St is generating anywhere close to $2.5 Million in revenue or donations annually.

I can almost guarantee that they're fully funded in basketball and football- with an equivalent number of scholarships spread across women's sports for Title IX.