Northwood Exit and Expansion Discussion

[Tony Nicolette]

How much is significantly less than $1M?

Well, it depends on which article one reads regarding the subject. This article states that each school gets $600K per year. In the article here, that # looks like it's more akin to $833K per year. Either # is well below $1M. The average Athletics budget for a MAC school is in the $25M-$26M range, so again...$600-$800K isn't anything to sneeze at, but amounts like these that represent roughly 3% of the average member's budget are not what are keeping the lights on for these programs.

[Redwing]

The MAC TV deal nets each league member significantly less than $1M per year. I'm not saying it's "nothing", but at face value I'm struggling to see the loss of a # like that to be a "crippler" as you suggest...

Not only that, their fan draw has essentially fallen off the map with those Tuesday games.

[UFOILERFAN]

The MAC TV deal nets each league member significantly less than $1M per year. I'm not saying it's "nothing", but at face value I'm struggling to see the loss of a # like that to be a "crippler" as you suggest...

How much is significantly less than $1M?

[Tony Nicolette]

Nope, they don't. The reason is $$$$$$$$$. Dropping to FCS would absolutely cripple the conference because of the media rights agreement they have with ESPN. ESPN would pay nothing close to what they pay for the rights to broadcast the MAC currently if the MAC dropped to FCS. People don't realize the true impact of being at the FCS level for these schools. The problems these schools are facing are not related to the division the athletic department is in. They are related to mismanagement and top heavy administration that doesn't have a clue.

The MAC TV deal nets each league member significantly less than $1M per year. I'm not saying it's "nothing", but at face value I'm struggling to see the loss of a # like that to be a "crippler" as you suggest...

[chapmaja]

Imaginary but logical. FCS is where the MAC belongs.

Nope, they don't. The reason is $$$$$$$$$. Dropping to FCS would absolutely cripple the conference because of the media rights agreement they have with ESPN. ESPN would pay nothing close to what they pay for the rights to broadcast the MAC currently if the MAC dropped to FCS. People don't realize the true impact of being at the FCS level for these schools. The problems these schools are facing are not related to the division the athletic department is in. They are related to mismanagement and top heavy administration that doesn't have a clue.

We have had two major situations with Michigan MAC schools dropping sports in recent years. EMU dropped 4 sports a few years ago for budgetary reasons (men's swimming and wrestling, women's softball and tennis). Since then they have 1) been forced to reinstated women's tennis and 2) added a women's lacrosse program. They dropped what was their most successful program in the MAC (men's swimming) and haven't saved close to the money they said they would from that decision. When they dropped wrestling, they had to later admit they messed up the numbers they allocated to "game day expenses" and had actually double counted those expenses. Also, cutting those men's teams meant they cut spots for roughly 50 athletes who were paying their own way (total cuts were about 70 male athletes, and scholarship limits total were about 20, so 50 were paying their own way to attend the school). The only decision EMU got right was replacing softball with lacrosse on the women's side. That meant they went from having about 5 non-scholarship players to about 20 non-scholarship player paying their own way.

CMU dropped their men's track program (but not the cross country program). The program offered 12.6 scholarships (that includes those offered for cross country), and had roughly 25 non-scholarshiped athletes on that program.

These are athletes who are now going to other schools to compete.

What is interesting is that while D1 schools are dropping these non-revenue sports (and complaining about losing enrollment as well), you see non-D1 schools adding non-revenue sports regularly.

In the GLIAC alone, over the last few years we've seen SVSU add men's and women's swimming, NMU reinstate men's swimming, LSSU add men's and women's swimming (they did drop softball a few years ago, due to the fact they could hardly ever play at home), NMU also added a couple other sports as well, Davenport added their swimming programs recently, (Even Aquinas added a swim program), and MTU is rumored to be adding (actually reinstating) their swim programs soon. Why would these schools be adding these sports while the D1 schools are dropping. The answer is simple. The smaller schools realize that the non-revenue sports bring in a lot of students who are not on scholarship to these schools.

[chapmaja]

Are other facilities, such as tracks, baseball/softball/soccer fields, swimming pool, etc,a factor in moving up to FCS?

Not really, the variety of facilities is huge at the FCS level.

From a GVSU facility standpoint, the track facility would immediately go towards the top of the list in the Horizon League (it's hosted multiple DII nationals, including last weekend). Indoor track GVSU would also have the top or near the top facility. (Although more seating would be really nice).

From a swimming standpoint, the pool would be mid-pack at best, but GVSU actually does have, deep in the plans, a design to build a new 50 meter pool. I don't see it being done any time soon. The pool GVSU has is adequate for dual / tri meets, but GVSU rents out Jenison HS or the Holland Aquatic Center for major meets like the GLIAC meet.

I think softball / baseball could use some seating expansion if they moved up, but the are solid facilities.

The golf course also likely would go to near the top of the Horizon List. GVSU's course has been ranked among the nations top 25 college owned courses in the country, including ranking ahead of both the UofM and MSU courses on one list. (all three in the top 25).

The lacrosse stadium and soccer stadiums would be just fine and on the better end of the Horizon as well.

[tip79]

Are other facilities, such as tracks, baseball/softball/soccer fields, swimming pool, etc,a factor in moving up to FCS?

[KleShreen]

The NCAA bylaws also don't allow a school to move from DIII to DI directly either, however the St. Thomas Tommies have done just that, with a waiver from the NCAA.

I don't think GVSU would end up going to the MAC anytime soon, and I really don't think the MAC would want GVSU either, at least not the three Michigan schools or Toledo / BGSU. GVSU is too much in their region for it to be a good thing for GVSU to move to the MAC.

If GVSU moves up they go to the Horizon League for all sports offered except football and likely go to the OVC/Big South merged league for football. The Horizon League looks to be searching for a 12th member as UIC is moving to the MVC effective July 1st.

I think the move to the Horizon would be GVSU's best move. GVSU currently (or will soon) offer all sports the Horizon offers with the exception of men's soccer. The addition of GVSU's men's tennis team would get the Horizon to the minimum 6 members required for an automatic NCAA bid as well (they currently have 5).

Only three non-football sports GVSU offers would not have homes in the Horizon. GVSU's wrestling teams would need to find a conference home. This would likely be the MAC on the men's side, but GVSU would be the only D1 women's wrestling program in the country. Women's lacrosse is the only other sport that would need a conference home, and that would likely be the MAC (UofD Mercy, Youngstown State and Robert Morris are all MAC members for the sport.)

From a geographic standpoint it would be an absolute no brainer. Traffic would not be significantly greater than the GLIAC travel was a few years ago with the Ohio and Pennsylvania schools in the conference.

Obviously I think most people here agree Horizon would make sense. But it sounds like the Horizon doesn't want GV. I'm guessing Detroit and Oakland don't want the competition.

[BeachinLaker]

Right. It's just an imaginary scenario - imaginary on all counts right now.

Imaginary but logical. FCS is where the MAC belongs.

[BeachinLaker]

The NCAA bylaws also don't allow a school to move from DIII to DI directly either, however the St. Thomas Tommies have done just that, with a waiver from the NCAA.

I don't think GVSU would end up going to the MAC anytime soon, and I really don't think the MAC would want GVSU either, at least not the three Michigan schools or Toledo / BGSU. GVSU is too much in their region for it to be a good thing for GVSU to move to the MAC.

If GVSU moves up they go to the Horizon League for all sports offered except football and likely go to the OVC/Big South merged league for football. The Horizon League looks to be searching for a 12th member as UIC is moving to the MVC effective July 1st.

I think the move to the Horizon would be GVSU's best move. GVSU currently (or will soon) offer all sports the Horizon offers with the exception of men's soccer. The addition of GVSU's men's tennis team would get the Horizon to the minimum 6 members required for an automatic NCAA bid as well (they currently have 5).

Only three non-football sports GVSU offers would not have homes in the Horizon. GVSU's wrestling teams would need to find a conference home. This would likely be the MAC on the men's side, but GVSU would be the only D1 women's wrestling program in the country. Women's lacrosse is the only other sport that would need a conference home, and that would likely be the MAC (UofD Mercy, Youngstown State and Robert Morris are all MAC members for the sport.)

From a geographic standpoint it would be an absolute no brainer. Traffic would not be significantly greater than the GLIAC travel was a few years ago with the Ohio and Pennsylvania schools in the conference.

[chapmaja]

That would mean the MAC is moving down to FCS, then, because I believe there's by-laws that don't allow for a school to skip from D-II to FBS in football.

The NCAA bylaws also don't allow a school to move from DIII to DI directly either, however the St. Thomas Tommies have done just that, with a waiver from the NCAA.

I don't think GVSU would end up going to the MAC anytime soon, and I really don't think the MAC would want GVSU either, at least not the three Michigan schools or Toledo / BGSU. GVSU is too much in their region for it to be a good thing for GVSU to move to the MAC.

If GVSU moves up they go to the Horizon League for all sports offered except football and likely go to the OVC/Big South merged league for football. The Horizon League looks to be searching for a 12th member as UIC is moving to the MVC effective July 1st.

I think the move to the Horizon would be GVSU's best move. GVSU currently (or will soon) offer all sports the Horizon offers with the exception of men's soccer. The addition of GVSU's men's tennis team would get the Horizon to the minimum 6 members required for an automatic NCAA bid as well (they currently have 5).

Only three non-football sports GVSU offers would not have homes in the Horizon. GVSU's wrestling teams would need to find a conference home. This would likely be the MAC on the men's side, but GVSU would be the only D1 women's wrestling program in the country. Women's lacrosse is the only other sport that would need a conference home, and that would likely be the MAC (UofD Mercy, Youngstown State and Robert Morris are all MAC members for the sport.)

From a geographic standpoint it would be an absolute no brainer. Traffic would not be significantly greater than the GLIAC travel was a few years ago with the Ohio and Pennsylvania schools in the conference.

[EastStroud13]

There's zero point in moving up if you're just going to go to be complacent and fodder for larger schools.

Perhaps.

[Brandon]

That would mean the MAC is moving down to FCS, then, because I believe there's by-laws that don't allow for a school to skip from D-II to FBS in football.

Right. It's just an imaginary scenario - imaginary on all counts right now.

[KleShreen]

There are a TON of high school-level basketball arenas in D1, particularly in the northeast. Whether or not those teams deserve to be in D1... that's another story. But a basketball arena upgrade isn't necessarily a requirement to move up as long as it meets a very basic standard.

There's zero point in moving up if you're just going to go to be complacent and fodder for larger schools.

[EastStroud13]

The capacity isn't the issue with the GVSU Arena.

There are a TON of high school-level basketball arenas in D1, particularly in the northeast. Whether or not those teams deserve to be in D1... that's another story. But a basketball arena upgrade isn't necessarily a requirement to move up as long as it meets a very basic standard.