The Enigma that is Wayne State

[GV Retired Bum]

Curious as to how long this has been going on? Was this still the case in 2010/2011? If so, really don't subscribe to this having a huge impact on the quality of teams Wayne State puts out. If Wayne proved they can win 8-9+ games a season multiple years then it could happen again.

I went back and checked Wayne's records and games from the past 10 years. The 2011 season for you guys was an ok regular season with one hell of a playoff run. I think thats the type of program you have to be if the scholarships and high academic standards are hurting recruiting as much as some of you state (Im not arguing one way or the other). I think the main issue is the inconsistency year in and year out which is directly correlated to the person running the program. From a pure talent perspective you should have a win % of 90+ against the likes of Northwood, NMU, and Tech. If you want to argue with that, its fine but I played against them for 6 years in the 2010's, Wayne is BY FAR more talented than all 3.


Your record against all 3 combined in the past 5 seasons when you have played all 3 in one year..... 8-7.

Here my point. If you want to argue Wayne isnt that much more talented than the 3, fine. I know you are dead wrong. But you cant sit here and defend a head coach who is barely above .500 against far inferior opponents the last 5 years. Playing Tech @ tech later in the season is obviously a harder task. But, you have zero excuses for the other two. If the guys were more prepared and better coached they wouldnt be losing to people they shouldnt be. Its just that simple. Whether Wooster was the right answer or not, something has to change to give you guys a chance to make another amazing run in the playoffs.

[WayneStatesman]

I went back and checked Wayne's records and games from the past 10 years. The 2011 season for you guys was an ok regular season with one hell of a playoff run. I think thats the type of program you have to be if the scholarships and high academic standards are hurting recruiting as much as some of you state (Im not arguing one way or the other). I think the main issue is the inconsistency year in and year out which is directly correlated to the person running the program. From a pure talent perspective you should have a win % of 90+ against the likes of Northwood, NMU, and Tech. If you want to argue with that, its fine but I played against them for 6 years in the 2010's, Wayne is BY FAR more talented than all 3.


Your record against all 3 combined in the past 5 seasons when you have played all 3 in one year..... 8-7.

Here my point. If you want to argue Wayne isnt that much more talented than the 3, fine. I know you are dead wrong. But you cant sit here and defend a head coach who is barely above .500 against far inferior opponents the last 5 years. Playing Tech @ tech later in the season is obviously a harder task. But, you have zero excuses for the other two. If the guys were more prepared and better coached they wouldnt be losing to people they shouldnt be. Its just that simple. Whether Wooster was the right answer or not, something has to change to give you guys a chance to make another amazing run in the playoffs.

You make good points and observations. I think Wayne State should probably be a solid perennial 3rd place GLIAC team with good coaching.The reality is they would have a tough time getting to the level of GV and FSU because of the scholarship, GPA and facility issues already mentioned. Again, with good coaching they would be more consistent and have some 8 or 9 win seasons and the occasional playoff appearance because of the talent they are able to recruit but they should be over .500 virtually every season. They're not at that level now however and I have to lay the blame on the HC and his staff. There's no good excuse for two 2-9 seasons in three years otherwise.

[MrsThortonMelon]

You make good points and observations. I think Wayne State should probably be a solid perennial 3rd place GLIAC team with good coaching.The reality is they would have a tough time getting to the level of GV and FSU because of the scholarship, GPA and facility issues already mentioned. Again, with good coaching they would be more consistent and have some 8 or 9 win seasons and the occasional playoff appearance because of the talent they are able to recruit but they should be over .500 virtually every season. They're not at that level now however and I have to lay the blame on the HC and his staff. There's no good excuse for two 2-9 seasons in three years otherwise.

The GPA and facilities issue is BS..GVSU and Tech both have the same or better standards for GPA..WSU has chosen to provide what they want...they are also smack in the middle of recruiting prime area...leadership changes are the only solution at this point....OR..consider a move to the MIAA and go D3..if money is an issue and if WSU is such a academic powerhouse it seems like the right plan.

[UMary1]

The GPA and facilities issue is BS..GVSU and Tech both have the same or better standards for GPA..WSU has chosen to provide what they want...they are also smack in the middle of recruiting prime area...leadership changes are the only solution at this point....OR..consider a move to the MIAA and go D3..if money is an issue and if WSU is such a academic powerhouse it seems like the right plan.

This seems to be a S&*^ or get off the pot scenario. Can't have one foot in high level academics and the other in trying to be a successful D2 program. In saying that I believe a change in leadership would be wise. Hire Bellevilles HS coach! Really make a dent! Think Jeff Traylor at UTSA. HS ties would be huge for that program. Its a recruiting hot bed.

[KleShreen]

The GPA and facilities issue is BS..GVSU and Tech both have the same or better standards for GPA..WSU has chosen to provide what they want...they are also smack in the middle of recruiting prime area...leadership changes are the only solution at this point....OR..consider a move to the MIAA and go D3..if money is an issue and if WSU is such a academic powerhouse it seems like the right plan.

I don't know if we can actually call Detroit a recruiting hotbed, still. The D1's come in and pick up everyone they can, and the pickings left over for D-II schools are few and far between, and the ones that are there for a D-II to pick up are usually wanting to get *out* of Detroit, not stay there for college. Most of the D-II kids end up coming from the Detroit suburbs, if anything. And I think the problem is the kids from the Detroit suburbs don't want to go to school in Detroit proper.

[mtsax305]

I've got the numbers crunched. Assuming we take a massive L at FSU, here are Paul Winters W-L post-2011.

Overall: 45-53 (.459), 5 seasons being .500 and above, but never winning more than 8 games (which was only done once).
Official GLIAC Record: 40-43 (.482), again 5 seasons above .500, but only three 6+ win seasons.

Here's where the fun begins:
Against 2021 GLIAC: 20-32 (.385), only two seasons above .500 (2017 and 2019).
Against 2022 GLIAC: 13-30 (.302), the same two seasons above .500.

[mtsax305]

There's no good excuse for two 2-9 seasons in three years otherwise.

Listening to his post game pressers and locker room reports, Paul is milking the COVID shutdowns with the lack of conditioning/practice and injuries for all it's worth. He's playing with fire if he can't get the team to produce next year, since he's saying all these young guys have experience now. What's more telling is that a grad student QB that got 2 of the biggest regular season W's in recent history went from starting to last on the depth chart, and hasn't looked good at all when he has played.

Assuming that our AD/President don't have the grapefruits to can Paul or "promote" him to a desk job.

[DaleDude]

UMary 1 "Can't have one foot in high level academics and the other in trying to be a successful D2 program."
I don't entirely agree with you, UM1. Hillsdale, for example, where you won't even be considered unless you have the grades to get into Harvard, or the Ivy League schools. Agreed, Hillsdale's last national championship came in 1985, NAIA, but they have been able to make the D2 playoffs, beat Grand Valley (but not all the time), beat Wayne State with whom something of a rivalry had developed before Hillsdale left the GLIAC for the GMAC. High academic standards require high commitment to athletics in order to have success. Check out Hillsdale's athletic web site to see how the teams are doing: Men's basketball ranked in the top 10 nationally. Women's Volleyball ranked in the top 10 nationally. Football down a bit this year, but did beat, on the road, the two teams playing for the GMAC championship this Saturday. I think that if anything, colleges and universities ought to toughen up their academic requirements, although such a move would have probably kept my sorry old Marine a$$ out of college. Semper Fi!

[GV Retired Bum]

I don't know if we can actually call Detroit a recruiting hotbed, still. The D1's come in and pick up everyone they can, and the pickings left over for D-II schools are few and far between, and the ones that are there for a D-II to pick up are usually wanting to get *out* of Detroit, not stay there for college. Most of the D-II kids end up coming from the Detroit suburbs, if anything. And I think the problem is the kids from the Detroit suburbs don't want to go to school in Detroit proper.

I played with alot of guys from Detroit and this just isnt true. They chose to play for GV because they didnt believe in WSU... which is a culture thing... culture is driven by the Head Coach and Administrators. They would have loved to stay put and play for their city but instead were forced to make a decision that was better for their playing future. Kids like Matt Judon should NEVER want to leave Detroit to play football in Allendale lol Winters should be messaging them every waking moment making it known they need them.

I actually really like the comment above regarding hiring the head coach from Belleville. The football community is extremely tight in the Detroit area and he would bring in recruits like no other.

I do understand some kids leave because of rough situations and need a fresh start elsewhere, but thats few and far between.

[KleShreen]

I played with alot of guys from Detroit and this just isnt true. They chose to play for GV because they didnt believe in WSU... which is a culture thing... culture is driven by the Head Coach and Administrators. They would have loved to stay put and play for their city but instead were forced to make a decision that was better for their playing future. Kids like Matt Judon should NEVER want to leave Detroit to play football in Allendale lol Winters should be messaging them every waking moment making it known they need them.

I actually really like the comment above regarding hiring the head coach from Belleville. The football community is extremely tight in the Detroit area and he would bring in recruits like no other.

I do understand some kids leave because of rough situations and need a fresh start elsewhere, but thats few and far between.

West Bloomfield is definitely not Detroit, though. lol

[UMary1]

I don't know if we can actually call Detroit a recruiting hotbed, still. The D1's come in and pick up everyone they can, and the pickings left over for D-II schools are few and far between, and the ones that are there for a D-II to pick up are usually wanting to get *out* of Detroit, not stay there for college. Most of the D-II kids end up coming from the Detroit suburbs, if anything. And I think the problem is the kids from the Detroit suburbs don't want to go to school in Detroit proper.

Detroit is a great city to go to school, Midtown (Second Best), Greek town, The District, Cork town, to say kids don't want to go to Detroit proper is just not true. Lets be honest a culture change is needed here, not sure if those kicking the tires at the problems and not focusing on the programs leadership is seeing the big picture. Hillside is a unique example of being able to compete and have high academic standards, rare but impressive. I wish this program the best, Alum and students deserve a competitor. Ill be keeping an eye on them.

[WayneStatesman]

The GPA and facilities issue is BS..GVSU and Tech both have the same or better standards for GPA..WSU has chosen to provide what they want...they are also smack in the middle of recruiting prime area...leadership changes are the only solution at this point....OR..consider a move to the MIAA and go D3..if money is an issue and if WSU is such a academic powerhouse it seems like the right plan.

I do think academic standards are a factor and # of scholarships has to be a factor but by far the biggest problem is leadership. I'm actually in favor of the D3 option because for whatever reason Wayne State has traditionally been reluctant to fully fund its football program although things have gotten better under our current AD. The drawback to D3 is all other sports have to go D3 also, not just football.

[GV Retired Bum]

West Bloomfield is definitely not Detroit, though. lol

Detroit or suburbs lol If you want to be that specific go ahead

[KleShreen]

Detroit or suburbs lol If you want to be that specific go ahead

I'm just telling you that most high schoolers who grew up in *West Bloomfield* or any of the other affluent suburbs are not going to want to go to Detroit for college.

[NewEraWarrior]

I'm just telling you that most high schoolers who grew up in *West Bloomfield* or any of the other affluent suburbs are not going to want to go to Detroit for college.

Certainly one man's opinion. On the contrary, with actual knowledge of having played at Wayne that is not a correct assumption based on my experience and teammates we've had. In the past decade alone we've had plenty players from Birmingham, West Bloomfield, Rochester, Clarkson, Lake Orion, Northville, etc. And a lot of these players were all-region/all-state caliber players.

Couple things to clarify for you, WSU's campus is in Midtown Detroit which is a pretty built up and nice part of the city. A lot of neat things to do there if you haven't visited the area in awhile. Detroit Mercy on the other hand doesn't have a lot going for it in on that side of Detroit.