Lincoln (Ca)

[SW_Mustang]

Really a guaranteed loss? Maybe...maybe not. A home game that brings in say 12-14K fans and revenue is not something you just drop...maybe at SMSU they would but GV will not.

Absolutely. Keyword here is quality. GVSU might fare well against the PFL, but against the same team Lindenwood played, or similar? Nope.

GVSU averaged 9,841 fans in 2019 per game. Every game they played that season was against a real football team. Are the Lakers going to draw 3k-5k more to see this mess? Don't get me wrong, 9.8k is very impressive and was good for the #2 spot that year - I'm not ragging on them for attendance at all. The data just isn't there to support 14k.

As for SMSU, if we're being technical - no, they wouldn't. The NSIC doesn't schedule outside of itself for football. Yes, it's annoying. We're also not on track to go FCS, so playing an FCS team doesn't do much for us besides being "neat."

We're getting off track though - back to the original topic.

[KleShreen]

Absolutely. Keyword here is quality. GVSU might fare well against the PFL, but against the same team Lindenwood played, or similar? Nope.

GVSU averaged 9,841 fans in 2019 per game. Every game they played that season was against a real football team. Are the Lakers going to draw 3k-5k more to see this mess? Don't get me wrong, 9.8k is very impressive and was good for the #2 spot that year - I'm not ragging on them for attendance at all. The data just isn't there to support 14k.

As for SMSU, if we're being technical - no, they wouldn't. The NSIC doesn't schedule outside of itself for football. Yes, it's annoying. We're also not on track to go FCS, so playing an FCS team doesn't do much for us besides being "neat."

We're getting off track though - back to the original topic.

GV almost always draws 10k+ for early season games when the weather is still nice, no matter who the opponent is. The only reason their average wasn't over 10k is because the late season home games draw under 9k and the playoff games never draw people.

[BeachinLaker]

Absolutely. Keyword here is quality. GVSU might fare well against the PFL, but against the same team Lindenwood played, or similar? Nope.

GVSU averaged 9,841 fans in 2019 per game. Every game they played that season was against a real football team. Are the Lakers going to draw 3k-5k more to see this mess? Don't get me wrong, 9.8k is very impressive and was good for the #2 spot that year - I'm not ragging on them for attendance at all. The data just isn't there to support 14k.

As for SMSU, if we're being technical - no, they wouldn't. The NSIC doesn't schedule outside of itself for football. Yes, it's annoying. We're also not on track to go FCS, so playing an FCS team doesn't do much for us besides being "neat."

We're getting off track though - back to the original topic.

I really don't think the average fan is going to know that Lincoln is a giant scam and its campus is a small former bank. They'll still show up at over 10,000. 14-16,000 is more for family day or Ferris games.

[KleShreen]

I really don't think the average fan is going to know that Lincoln is a giant scam and its campus is a small former bank. They'll still show up at over 10,000. 14-16,000 is more for family day or Ferris games.

Lincoln is the Family Day game this year!

[SW_Mustang]

I really don't think the average fan is going to know that Lincoln is a giant scam and its campus is a small former bank. They'll still show up at over 10,000. 14-16,000 is more for family day or Ferris games.

That's fair - LU seems to have fooled enough people on this board into thinking they're a real school, and in D2 no less.

I just hope LU doesn't fool the ranking committee - not fair to all the teams playing actual games that week.

[SW_Mustang]

GV almost always draws 10k+ for early season games when the weather is still nice, no matter who the opponent is. The only reason their average wasn't over 10k is because the late season home games draw under 9k and the playoff games never draw people.

Yeah, I didn't consider that. It's the same way in Minnesota, well at least at SMSU. Bigger crowds in August/September, and pretty empty by November. Weather gets brutal.

[Redwing]

Between FCS, D2, D3, and NAIA - AD couldn't find *one* program willing to play GVSU? They had to choose Lincoln? That sounds like an administrative problem to me, not a "nobody wants to play us" problem. Either that or my original theory that money is exchanging hands in a reverse PFP situation.

Heck, Lindenwood came up to SDSU last year. Maybe the Lakers would be willing to sacrifice a home game to play a quality FCS team. It would be a guaranteed loss, but it would look a lot better than beating a bunch of JUCO kids who paid for roster spots. Just an idea.

I'm not following your logic. GV has a rep to play most anyone. They've made long road trips almost every season. You don't find it odd how not one school near MI will play GV? You want them to play an FCS to risk injury in a game that won't count. How does that game benefit at all? And GV was looking for a home game. It's big revenue for them.... unlike most other schools.. including FCS. I'm still not sold that Lincoln doesn't count as a D2 game. but lets agree that it doesn't. What is the harm of them coming to GV?
BTW, did you see who ducked who last season when the team cancelled a GV matchup?

If you wanted to stir the nest, I guess your comment does it.

[SW_Mustang]

I'm not following your logic. GV has a rep to play most anyone. They've made long road trips almost every season. You don't find it odd how not one school near MI will play GV? You want them to play an FCS to risk injury in a game that won't count. How does that game benefit at all? And GV was looking for a home game. It's big revenue for them.... unlike most other schools.. including FCS. I'm still not sold that Lincoln doesn't count as a D2 game. but lets agree that it doesn't. What is the harm of them coming to GV?
BTW, did you see who ducked who last season when the team cancelled a GV matchup?

If you wanted to stir the nest, I guess your comment does it.

Huh?

How does a game against an FCS opponent not count? That's not how it works, at all. Why risk injury against LU for a game that doesn't count? Your point is valid, the details are just backwards. As far as revenue goes, every team in D2 earns revenue. GVSU just earns a lot more than pretty much all of them. I totally get that aspect. They'd likely get some sum of money to play an FCS team though, just like LU is probably getting some some from the Lakers to play GVSU. Most interdivisional games are pay-for-play, if not all of them. Probably not the same as what they get playing Drake or whatever, but they also wouldn't be completely out financially. My comment about it working in reverse is totally speculation, but I can almost guarantee one is paying the other. That's just how it works (and there's nothing wrong with it).

To answer your questions - Yes, it's strange they can't get a local opponent. I looked it up and you are referring to a 4-6 PSAC team, which I'm not grasping the significance of in relation to the conversation. It's a bummer it happened as it would have been an easy win for GVSU.

You seem to think I have something against GVSU. I think they are a great football team and nothing I said about them was negative, so I don't understand your closing comment. I do have a lot against LU, and I hate to see they are getting these games.

Anyway - you've commented twice about LU's D2 status. Would you be able to share what you read that said they were D2? I'm genuinely curious. I think I know what you're referring too, but on the off-chance it's something different, I'd love to read it.

[Redwing]

Huh?

How does a game against an FCS opponent not count? That's not how it works, at all. Why risk injury against LU for a game that doesn't count?

Anyway - you've commented twice about LU's D2 status. Would you be able to share what you read that said they were D2? I'm genuinely curious. I think I know what you're referring too, but on the off-chance it's something different, I'd love to read it.

FCS games don't count for much of anything in the records. For the PO's it's like no game happened.... just like playing a d3 or NAIA squad. NCAA ignores the contest. And GV has a big enough reputation that they likely could care less about playing the FCS squad and potentially losing. Just so you know, there will be well over 10k fans to see that Lincoln game at GV. It'll be a sell out and likely over capacity at Lubbers.

I'm too lazy to look, but if one goes to LU's opponents, when the opponents announce that they will play Lincoln, they refer to Lincoln as being D2 when they announced the match up. So go to the schools on LU's schedule and read the announcements. That's where I've seen it in print.

And the reason I thought that you might be stirring the pot is that most in D2 are pretty aware how hard it is to schedule a team. My point about last year's open date wasn't so much about the school backing out.. though that matters too, but rather a few schools also had open dates and didn't want to play GV. Most won't say it publicly, but it's pretty rational that they don't want to get beat. At least that's the consensus take on that. I can understand that, but then it's weak to blame the school (GV) trying to fill open dates with any takers.

[ctrabs74]

How does a game against an FCS opponent not count? That's not how it works, at all. Why risk injury against LU for a game that doesn't count? Your point is valid, the details are just backwards. As far as revenue goes, every team in D2 earns revenue. GVSU just earns a lot more than pretty much all of them. I totally get that aspect. They'd likely get some sum of money to play an FCS team though, just like LU is probably getting some some from the Lakers to play GVSU. Most interdivisional games are pay-for-play, if not all of them. Probably not the same as what they get playing Drake or whatever, but they also wouldn't be completely out financially. My comment about it working in reverse is totally speculation, but I can almost guarantee one is paying the other. That's just how it works (and there's nothing wrong with it).

An FCS game counts in the standings, but not for playoff seeding. In the rare case where a D2 beats an FCS, it looks great on paper, but it doesn't do a damn thing for your playoff potential if you end up losing to a winless conference opponent.

To answer your questions - Yes, it's strange they can't get a local opponent. I looked it up and you are referring to a 4-6 PSAC team, which I'm not grasping the significance of in relation to the conversation. It's a bummer it happened as it would have been an easy win for GVSU.

I think that was a multi-year series between Grand Valley and Edinboro - two games in Allendale (2019 and 2021) and one in Edinboro (2020). The 2020 game in Edinboro was cancelled due to the Pandemic and Edinboro backed out from the 2021 game due to COVID concerns, as I recall.

You seem to think I have something against GVSU. I think they are a great football team and nothing I said about them was negative, so I don't understand your closing comment. I do have a lot against LU, and I hate to see they are getting these games.

This...

Anyway - you've commented twice about LU's D2 status. Would you be able to share what you read that said they were D2? I'm genuinely curious. I think I know what you're referring too, but on the off-chance it's something different, I'd love to read it.

So would, I'd suspect, those folks in Oakland...

[SW_Mustang]

Comments in bold...

An FCS game counts in the standings, but not for playoff seeding. In the rare case where a D2 beats an FCS, it looks great on paper, but it doesn't do a damn thing for your playoff potential if you end up losing to a winless conference opponent.

That does ring a bell. I could see it having some small effect on recruiting as well, but that's probably minimal. The NCAA's scheduling rules are pretty laid back, is this something they did or something the conferences did?


I think that was a multi-year series between Grand Valley and Edinboro - two games in Allendale (2019 and 2021) and one in Edinboro (2020). The 2020 game in Edinboro was cancelled due to the Pandemic and Edinboro backed out from the 2021 game due to COVID concerns, as I recall.

Gotcha... Was not aware any of that happened.

This...

I'm a believer in the student half of being a student athlete, especially below the FBS level. LU is "technically" non-profit, but they don't have a good reputation with the DoE, and with many of their former students. These types of schools, mainly the for-profit ones - I don't like them. It's usually the non-students of these institutions that foot the bill when they fail.

So would, I'd suspect, those folks in Oakland...

LU announced themselves as D2 when they first came on the scene, it was picked up by some random football news blog site, and that seems to be what gets cited the most. LU briefly switched to saying they play a "D2 Schedule," and have since seemed to be silent on the matter. Announcing ones' self as D2 doesn't make it so. It's an entire process a school has to go through. If they are D2, they'd be the only ones without a home field to play on.

[SW_Mustang]

FCS games don't count for much of anything in the records. For the PO's it's like no game happened.... just like playing a d3 or NAIA squad. NCAA ignores the contest. And GV has a big enough reputation that they likely could care less about playing the FCS squad and potentially losing. Just so you know, there will be well over 10k fans to see that Lincoln game at GV. It'll be a sell out and likely over capacity at Lubbers.

I'm too lazy to look, but if one goes to LU's opponents, when the opponents announce that they will play Lincoln, they refer to Lincoln as being D2 when they announced the match up. So go to the schools on LU's schedule and read the announcements. That's where I've seen it in print.

And the reason I thought that you might be stirring the pot is that most in D2 are pretty aware how hard it is to schedule a team. My point about last year's open date wasn't so much about the school backing out.. though that matters too, but rather a few schools also had open dates and didn't want to play GV. Most won't say it publicly, but it's pretty rational that they don't want to get beat. At least that's the consensus take on that. I can understand that, but then it's weak to blame the school (GV) trying to fill open dates with any takers.

I wish I had more time to follow D2 beyond my own conference. I'm vaguely aware of many things that happen nationally, enough to have a conversation - but I was genuinely not aware of GVSU's situation with scheduling. If it's as tough as it sounds, then it's probably pretty tough - and I rescind my previous comment. I was a little more brash than I should have been, and my frustration is not GVSU's fault, it's LU's. This school is strange and I think a lot more is going on than what's available at surface level with this place. I think they are mis-leading athletes and it's not going to end well.

Anyway, I referenced it in my previous reply - but when LU first announced their football program, they announced themselves as D2. Then they said they were "playing a D2 schedule." As their current schedule is a mix of divisions, they seem to be pretty silent on the matter. Somewhere along the way, some random college football blog relayed LU's D2 position and that seems to be what the reference point is. I was not aware opponents were doing the same, but honestly - it doesn't surprise me.

I expect GVSU to pull starters after the first few drives and let the backups/third stringers have a chance at them. At the very least, it could be some good experience for the underclassmen.

[Redwing]

I wish I had more time to follow D2 beyond my own conference. I'm vaguely aware of many things that happen nationally, enough to have a conversation - but I was genuinely not aware of GVSU's situation with scheduling. If it's as tough as it sounds, then it's probably pretty tough - and I rescind my previous comment. I was a little more brash than I should have been, and my frustration is not GVSU's fault, it's LU's. This school is strange and I think a lot more is going on than what's available at surface level with this place. I think they are mis-leading athletes and it's not going to end well.

Anyway, I referenced it in my previous reply - but when LU first announced their football program, they announced themselves as D2. Then they said they were "playing a D2 schedule." As their current schedule is a mix of divisions, they seem to be pretty silent on the matter. Somewhere along the way, some random college football blog relayed LU's D2 position and that seems to be what the reference point is. I was not aware opponents were doing the same, but honestly - it doesn't surprise me.

I expect GVSU to pull starters after the first few drives and let the backups/third stringers have a chance at them. At the very least, it could be some good experience for the underclassmen.

We're likely more on the same page then it appears.
As for the GV LU game... it's family night so I'm sure the parents will love the chance to see their kid play a few more snaps than the typical competitive contest. I think I want this to be a D2 game for PO's. I think the extra game means more than the reduced SOS impact.

[SW_Mustang]

We're likely more on the same page then it appears.
As for the GV LU game... it's family night so I'm sure the parents will love the chance to see their kid play a few more snaps than the typical competitive contest. I think I want this to be a D2 game for PO's. I think the extra game means more than the reduced SOS impact.

The joys of board discussion - things get lost in translation sometimes.

And you have a point about it being family night. They'll draw a crowd, the starters will play most of Q1, maybe a little of Q2, then the backups will have a crack at the Oaklanders. LU maybe gets a TD, maybe two at this point. GVSU will win by 30+ conservatively. And I mean, at the very least - seeing the home team in the endzone over and over, that's always kinda fun regardless of who the opponent is.