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  • Pitt amongst them.

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    • Originally posted by Predatory Primates View Post

      Not out of touch at all. Just saying that when compared to Southern, the empire builders in Wburg can't convince me that 1 or 2 longer road trips a year is going to hurt them.
      absolutely. it's conflation in part.
      Go Bearcats!
      M-I-Z-Z-O-U!

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Predatory Primates View Post

        Not out of touch at all. Just saying that when compared to Southern, the empire builders in Wburg can't convince me that 1 or 2 longer road trips a year is going to hurt them.
        I don't think it's the road trips that are the issue. It's the large payouts to get schools to play a home game at NW and the like. That's why some conference agreements could help fix that so there is a guarantee of a home game with no payout and then on the road to a different (or same) ooc opponent the next year.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by NWHoops View Post

          I don't think it's the road trips that are the issue. It's the large payouts to get schools to play a home game at NW and the like. That's why some conference agreements could help fix that so there is a guarantee of a home game with no payout and then on the road to a different (or same) ooc opponent the next year.
          Generally agree but I am going to respectfully disagree on the conference arrangement piece.

          Playing a quality non-con road game is an issue of cost and one of what the other school will do in return. For UCM to travel to a quality road game, where would it be? Lindenwood? Sioux Falls? Mankato? Searcy, Arkansas? Yes UCM could schedule a Truman, SBU, William Jewel, Missouri S&T etc but what would that net? Currently the GLVC has been traveling to the GLIAC mainly and I believe Truman played Commerce a year or two ago. The logical thing would be to schedule Truman and Lindenwood as they generally are going to be competitive in the GLVC. It would improve your strength of schedule but not every MIAA team can schedule those two opponents. How far would Kearney have to travel to play a quality team? What about Pitt? NW is the closest to the NSIC so that would make the most sense but until they open the conference up to OOC games it's a moot point. Same can be said for the GAC but why would one want to schedule an in region opponent?

          Bottom line IMO, OOC games are going to be expensive if you want to play a quality opponent and given the current and worsening fiscal concerns with smaller schools, the status quo is best for now and the dissent can't solely be blamed on UCM or NW.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Predatory Primates View Post

            Not out of touch at all. Just saying that when compared to Southern, the empire builders in Wburg can't convince me that 1 or 2 longer road trips a year is going to hurt them.
            Southern would gladly take a non-con game with SBU, S&T or William Jewel as it would get them a win and not that much in travel. Heck they could leave the morning of the game and be just fine. Now would they go to Gunnison, CO; Las Vegas, New Mexico; Chadron, NE, Pueblo or even Alamosa? How about a LSC team? My thought is heck no.

            The empire builders in Wburg are having to trim and IMO will be looking at trimming again if things don't stabilize. As NW Hoops stated, high school graduation rates are on the decline until the middle of the decade and will spike for a few years and then go right back down. This doesn't bode well for ALL of the MIAA not just in Wburg.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Gorilla John 92 View Post

              Pred, you seem to be out of touch with the true economic issues schools are facing. I can not speak for NW but I can tell you that enrollment is down for UCM and has led to difficult decisions needing to be made at UCM. Everyone had to cut budgets and this included athletics. Some sports this means traveling the same morning of an event others it is something else. I was informed from a reliable source that the the model for scholarship money now truly for the in-state equivalent. In the past, the University augmented by paying the 'Scholarship" for athletes that came from states that bordered Missouri. Now, Athletics has to pay for this while the University is still discounting this for other students that live in bordering states. This meant that athletics was only billed for the "in-state" rate and not the "out-of-state" rate and now they have to pay the out-of-state rate. This is huge. Think about our roster. How many kids come from Kansas, Illinois, Tennessee, Oklahoma or Iowa? The count was 60 last year with the majority coming from Illinois. The cost of tuition per credit hour is $235.00 for in-state students and $475.20 out-of-state students. That is more than double the rate so this is forcing athletics to do more with less.

              Think about it. Can anyone tell me for any other reason than budget as to why UCM doesn't have an OC yet?
              Can you clarify this? In the D2 partial scholarship model I don't understand how you can do this?
              If I understand this correctly you are saying that tuition (based on 12 hours/semester) for a year for out of state would be $11,404 and in-state would be $5,640. If you give a kid from Iowa a $4,000 scholarship then he would still pay $7,404? But if you don't scholarship him he only pays $5,640? It would be better financially for them to walk on if this is true.
              I may not be understanding the situation correctly.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Gorilla John 92 View Post

                Generally agree but I am going to respectfully disagree on the conference arrangement piece.

                Playing a quality non-con road game is an issue of cost and one of what the other school will do in return. For UCM to travel to a quality road game, where would it be? Lindenwood? Sioux Falls? Mankato? Searcy, Arkansas? Yes UCM could schedule a Truman, SBU, William Jewel, Missouri S&T etc but what would that net? Currently the GLVC has been traveling to the GLIAC mainly and I believe Truman played Commerce a year or two ago. The logical thing would be to schedule Truman and Lindenwood as they generally are going to be competitive in the GLVC. It would improve your strength of schedule but not every MIAA team can schedule those two opponents. How far would Kearney have to travel to play a quality team? What about Pitt? NW is the closest to the NSIC so that would make the most sense but until they open the conference up to OOC games it's a moot point. Same can be said for the GAC but why would one want to schedule an in region opponent?

                Bottom line IMO, OOC games are going to be expensive if you want to play a quality opponent and given the current and worsening fiscal concerns with smaller schools, the status quo is best for now and the dissent can't solely be blamed on UCM or NW.
                UNK wants to play Chadron State and Wayne State. The distances between UNK and the MIAA/Chadron/Wayne.

                558 - NSU
                483 - LU
                477 - MSSU
                458 - UCO
                446 - PSU
                383 - UCM
                339 - ESU

                324 - CSC
                297 - WU
                276 - MWSU
                252 - NW

                189 - WSC
                146 - FHSU

                Playing those two and eliminating two southern opponents might actually save money for UNK.

                Pittsburg State

                546 - INDY
                514 - KWC
                506 - WT
                500 - UIU
                479 - DSU
                446 - UNK
                417 - WSC
                414 - LANE
                374 - MSUTX
                353 - QU
                348 - FHSU
                335 - TAMUC
                329 - MCK
                324 - UCM
                309 - LWOOD
                307 - TSU
                227 - UCO
                220 - NW
                208 - LU

                200 - MST
                177 - MWSU
                172 - WU
                156 - ESU

                143 - WJC
                129 - UNK
                129 - NSU
                32 - MSSU



                I didn't include any GAC teams. Obviously, the closer to the exterior of the conference the easier it would be to travel. UCO would have a ton of options. The Wayne State options are contingent on the NSIC opening up.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Brandon View Post

                  UNK wants to play Chadron State and Wayne State. The distances between UNK and the MIAA/Chadron/Wayne.

                  558 - NSU
                  483 - LU
                  477 - MSSU
                  458 - UCO
                  446 - PSU
                  383 - UCM
                  339 - ESU

                  324 - CSC
                  297 - WU
                  276 - MWSU
                  252 - NW

                  189 - WSC
                  146 - FHSU

                  Playing those two and eliminating two southern opponents might actually save money for UNK.

                  Pittsburg State

                  546 - INDY
                  514 - KWC
                  506 - WT
                  500 - UIU
                  479 - DSU
                  446 - UNK
                  417 - WSC
                  414 - LANE
                  374 - MSUTX
                  353 - QU
                  348 - FHSU
                  335 - TAMUC
                  329 - MCK
                  324 - UCM
                  309 - LWOOD
                  307 - TSU
                  227 - UCO
                  220 - NW
                  208 - LU

                  200 - MST
                  177 - MWSU
                  172 - WU
                  156 - ESU

                  143 - WJC
                  129 - UNK
                  129 - NSU
                  32 - MSSU



                  I didn't include any GAC teams. Obviously, the closer to the exterior of the conference the easier it would be to travel. UCO would have a ton of options. The Wayne State options are contingent on the NSIC opening up.
                  Looks like you fat fingered when you typed UCM. Either that or Pitt takes some crazy route to Warrensburg if its 15 miles further than St Charles.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Gorilla John 92 View Post

                    Pred, you seem to be out of touch with the true economic issues schools are facing. I can not speak for NW but I can tell you that enrollment is down for UCM and has led to difficult decisions needing to be made at UCM. Everyone had to cut budgets and this included athletics. Some sports this means traveling the same morning of an event others it is something else. I was informed from a reliable source that the the model for scholarship money now truly for the in-state equivalent. In the past, the University augmented by paying the 'Scholarship" for athletes that came from states that bordered Missouri. Now, Athletics has to pay for this while the University is still discounting this for other students that live in bordering states. This meant that athletics was only billed for the "in-state" rate and not the "out-of-state" rate and now they have to pay the out-of-state rate. This is huge. Think about our roster. How many kids come from Kansas, Illinois, Tennessee, Oklahoma or Iowa? The count was 60 last year with the majority coming from Illinois. The cost of tuition per credit hour is $235.00 for in-state students and $475.20 out-of-state students. That is more than double the rate so this is forcing athletics to do more with less.

                    Think about it. Can anyone tell me for any other reason than budget as to why UCM doesn't have an OC yet?
                    Because the HC is already the best OC in the entire division.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Gorilla John 92 View Post

                      Generally agree but I am going to respectfully disagree on the conference arrangement piece.

                      Playing a quality non-con road game is an issue of cost and one of what the other school will do in return. For UCM to travel to a quality road game, where would it be? Lindenwood? Sioux Falls? Mankato? Searcy, Arkansas? Yes UCM could schedule a Truman, SBU, William Jewel, Missouri S&T etc but what would that net? Currently the GLVC has been traveling to the GLIAC mainly and I believe Truman played Commerce a year or two ago. The logical thing would be to schedule Truman and Lindenwood as they generally are going to be competitive in the GLVC. It would improve your strength of schedule but not every MIAA team can schedule those two opponents. How far would Kearney have to travel to play a quality team? What about Pitt? NW is the closest to the NSIC so that would make the most sense but until they open the conference up to OOC games it's a moot point. Same can be said for the GAC but why would one want to schedule an in region opponent?

                      Bottom line IMO, OOC games are going to be expensive if you want to play a quality opponent and given the current and worsening fiscal concerns with smaller schools, the status quo is best for now and the dissent can't solely be blamed on UCM or NW.
                      Similar to what Brandon said but without going through the mileage, our conference is spread out enough that I think there are options for all to have ooc games (that are still good quality teams) that are closer than some conference games. While NW may be closer to the NSIC, I can't see there being a big difference in taking out the NSU/UCO game(s) and getting GAC games. As I mentioned before, it has to be an agreement that makes financial sense among conferences with some type of memorandum so historically high-ranking teams aren't having to pay an arm and a leg to get a school to come play them at home. I think the conferences can work out something but not sure if they'll work together to that level.

                      Comment


                      • I can buy the fact that it's hard to get good opponents and can be expensive. Not buying the travel thing at all. Once you get rid of your furthest conference opponents, the mileage to quite a few non cons is pretty comparable like Brandon showed above.

                        It will get even better if the NSIC goes non silo.

                        Comment


                        • Is the GAC talking about opening it up at all?

                          Comment


                          • As far as a conf alliance goes, I would have to see the setup before I weigh in much on that. I shy away from a preset arrangement of games because it takes level of competition completely out of the hands of the school. I see potential issues with that.

                            ie:Say UNK had a great year, but is stuck playing the bottom of the gac and finishes with the same record as say Southern who played mid or upper tier gac teams. Both are 9-2. Everyone and their brother knows UNK looks better to the eye test that year, but Southern makes the PO's while UNK goes to the water bowl.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Predatory Primates View Post
                              I can buy the fact that it's hard to get good opponents and can be expensive. Not buying the travel thing at all. Once you get rid of your furthest conference opponents, the mileage to quite a few non cons is pretty comparable like Brandon showed above.

                              It will get even better if the NSIC goes non silo.
                              You only are able to "get rid of" the furthest conference opponents 2 out of 10 years.

                              Comment


                              • just let every school decide whom they don't want to play. the ones that want to decide, possibly some are low maintenance. i've taken the liberty of tending to everyone's delicate sensibilities. after the shills follow up w/ some more objections we'll revisit,

                                cms requires a qual ooc opp each yr so we'll match them up w/ lwood. per their fan they're much improved & it's a long time heated rival. scratch off hays to offset onerous tuition expenses. hays gets colorado st pueblo.
                                nwms can play truman st. no real reason, just trying to piss off as many ppl as possible w/ this one. we will scratch central okla off, don't need to be embarrassed again down there. give the bronchoes panhandle st.
                                nest can play sbu & avoid kearney as the trip is brutal & oppressive. they shall overcome. kearney gets chadron st.
                                pitt can play mid america nazarene, scratch off idk lincoln, it's basically the same thing & lbh they're still suffering night tremors from the delta st visit in 2005.
                                es can play jewell, scratch off wburn. give the ichies upper iowa.
                                mowest, scratch off moso, griffs don't like showing up for this one any more than cm. perhaps they can argue over who gets to avoid this embarrassment. mowest gets wayne st, moso gets rolla.

                                my gosh i really am a uniter.
                                Go Bearcats!
                                M-I-Z-Z-O-U!

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