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  • #16
    Good points tsull. I dont know if its an anti-football feeling on the west coast or just an apathy towards it. I am left feeling people just dont care about the sport. They have other past times, hiking, etc.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by tsull View Post

      Good stuff, and I think on the west coast, it is a culture thing and many people here don't know about small college athletics, many others think it's worthless. In a comments section on a small college football story in The Oregonian, one person wrote, "They should eliminate all small college sports." She didn't say why, just that they should do it.
      People are hilarious. Why limit that to just sports? Why not eliminate clubs at the small college level. Heck, why not eliminate small colleges? We should probably eliminate high school sports as well.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Brandon View Post

        People are hilarious. Why limit that to just sports? Why not eliminate clubs at the small college level. Heck, why not eliminate small colleges? We should probably eliminate high school sports as well.
        I know of people out West that think small colleges are all community colleges. Anything not Pac-12 can't be a University and the education must be inferior and only a 2-year quality degree. Fortunately those people about education aren't usually the hiring managers, but that belief hasn't gone away despite EWU's national title in many. You even see it with people who bash Gonzaga saying "my HS had a bigger gym than any they play in for conference" to which I want to say "your HS gym holds 21k?" to show them how un-educated they are on non Pac-12 schools?

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        • #19
          It's a shame you have to deal with so many ignorant people.

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          • #20

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Brandon View Post
              It's a shame you have to deal with so many ignorant people.
              Oh, it's stunning. I grew up in a D-1 town and 8 miles from Pullman, Washington, another D1 town; 30 miles from an NAIA school. I was weaned on D1, but knew that college sports was tough at any level. Many superstars at my high school flamed out at the major and small college levels after a year or less, some after a few practices. I knew it was tough. The average fan in the West, I would say, is very stupid. That Gonzaga story above is amazing. The Zags have the No. 1 or 2 pick in the NBA draft this year and two other draftees in their lineup. People are dumb.

              I remember when I was a frosh going to WOU when it was WOSC and NAIA. I walked into the gym one day to look around and one of the forwards on the hoop team, a really good role player, 6-5 guy from the Oregon coast, simply jumped up with not much of a running start, 360-dunked with ease. This dude would've owned my entire prep league. Guys in my hometown -- the D1 idiots -- would be shocked.

              I would say because of the lack of media coverage of small college sports in the west, sports cutting football, the overwhelming presence of UO/NIKE and UW, bury everything else.

              One more story: One of the more heralded QB's in Oregon prep history, a 4/5-star from Salem, went to BYU, floundered; went to Oregon; 6th string; ended up at WOU when they were NAIA, holding a clipboard, never played. It ain't easy out there at any college level. though the morons in the Northwest think it is.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by tsull View Post

                Good stuff, and I think on the west coast, it is a culture thing and many people here don't know about small college athletics, many others think it's worthless. In a comments section on a small college football story in The Oregonian, one person wrote, "They should eliminate all small college sports." She didn't say why, just that they should do it. When I worked at that community college, my supervisor said they should cut all sports at the school, then months later I saw him at a UO sporting event. He's one of those guys that thinks only the big boys should play, when in reality small college sports is the last bastion of amateurism and purity in collegiate athletics.

                I once picked up a book I thought was about Linfield College football. It was written by a prof. It was a rip job by a faculty member on the football program -- yes, she got it published -- 100 pages in, I returned it to the library (thank goodness I didn't buy it). Football at Linfield has been a boon to the school in enrollment, alumni support, publicity, and community gathering.

                It's all culture and whether you want it, or what good or bad president is running it. Amazingly, an east coast president can swoop into Arcata, California, cut the sport -- despite that they drew 5K-8K a game -- deny money raised for the sport, have the A.D. support her decision, then retire and leave town unscathed, damaging the school and the community. It's stunning she got away with this.

                So on the west coast, yes, there is an anti-football sentiment, big time. It would be interesting to see what a CSU-LA could do, play at a local high school, provide opportunities to inner city prep football players, be something besides a faceless commuter school. Chico, Stanislaus, Sonoma, Hayward (East Bay), San Bernadino, etc., all could pull it off if they wanted to. They don't want to, it's takes vision and WORK. Why work it when you're going to get your 6-figure salary whether you check out at 3:30 p.m. or you're grinding away till 8 p.m.? Administrators are dumb, but they're not that dumb. They simply don't want to work it and there's no accountability.
                I think the bolded is experienced everywhere, though it's probably a lot worse out west. A handful of big research universities mixed with west coast vanity probably leaves behind a lot of love for small schools and their programs. I just had a conversation about the Mankato townsfolk refusing to support the program because it's not D1 - despite the football team being one of the best in the country that produces it's fair share of NFL talent. Heck, most people don't even know my alma mater exists - and if they do, they think it's not a "real school" because it's not very pretty to look at.

                This is just my opinion, but I've come to the conclusion that a lot of the higher ed community doesn't think football (or sports in general) is an intellectual pursuit worthy of being included in a university setting. The effect is a lot of small-time administrators impose their will on their schools because they can't affect the system as a whole. It's their way of implementing their narrow-minded view of the higher ed landscape. I think football is absolutely an intellectual pursuit - it takes critical thought, teamwork, research, study, innovation - it's not just a bunch of rednecks knocking their heads together. I once had a professor that blamed the state of higher ed (declining enrollments, dwindling funding) on a targeted attack "they" instigated. I tried to get her to look at the faults of higher ed (lack of progression, high costs) - but she refused to fault the own system she was apart of. Not football related, so I'll stop there - but that's some insight as to how I formed my opinion.

                Thankfully, the new administration we just got is very much progressive - heck they added a handful of sports. They realize that cutting football might just deal a fatal blow to our institution.

                CSU-LA is an interesting school. They are fairly large, and are also quite competitive. They are near the heart of LA and have some impressive alumni, but you never hear about them. I think if they could start up football and market it correctly, they could probably draw a decent-ish crowd. They had football at one time, even claiming a national title - they played throughout the city. How cool would that be, honestly, to be a youth from LA getting to showcase yourself on your home field for a night or two a season?

                Dominguez Hills has an NFL stadium on campus ready to go... Stanislaus would be really cool too. Lots of options here, but it's sad these folks just don't see it.



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                • #23
                  Really great post, Mustang. So much to take in there, perhaps the most insightful was when you wrote, "The effect is a lot of small-time administrators impose their will on their schools because they can't affect the system as a whole. It's their way of implementing their narrow-minded view of the higher ed landscape."

                  Boy this resonates big time. I think of the Humboldt president, who came in from a private D3 school in the East with a private school/east coast background, to a remote state school in Northern California, who cuts a beloved community program (that was featured in the NY Times), turns down money raised to keep football, retires and leaves town with a big grin on her face. She feels no shame. The WWU president not any better.

                  I'm starting to wonder if D2 schools get the bottom-feeders of the doctoral programs when they hire presidents. I haven't seen a lot of good ones.

                  What it comes down to, IMO, is institutional laziness. Since graduating many moons ago in a rather high student populated academic dept., this is how many times I've been contacted by that department: ZERO. Oh, the school wants my money, but my academic dept. has never contacted me for anything. I have hosted school newspaper and cross country reunions that I put together myself. No way the school does this. Many years ago the now-retired WOU track coach called me (I did not run for him) and invited me to a reunion in Portland. I couldn't make it, I was living out of state, but I said, "I was a low-level scrub, how did you find me?" He said, I saw you on the roster and tracked you down." (This was before the internet.) He worked it a little and from what I heard, put together a great reunion. Emphasis on the word WORKED.

                  I get a lot of mailings and calls from the WOU athletic dept., I appreciate that and donate what I can. They were a few $$$ short on a track scholarship being developed by some former athletes and they e-mailed me to see if I could chip in, I did. I appreciate that. School is for academics, of course, and I hear NOTHING from my academic dept., zippity do dah, zilch. WOU athletics? I get the feeling they care, at least from their fund raising efforts towards me. I get many mailings and e-mails each month.

                  OK, if they can come up with an event like a college football game that attracts a few thousand to campus, have at it. When I go to homecoming, they sometimes have cool guest speakers, sometimes they do not ... actually more often than not no speakers. WOU has a nice, small art museum on campus, every time I go to campus it's closed. Nice work. Sheesh, can't they try harder?

                  I recently fired off a letter to the editor remarking on the recent no-vote by the faculty to the WOU president. Shocking to me was a 25% drop in enrollment in the last decade (pre-pandemic), while the state gained 400,000 in population at the same time. This is flat-out incompetence and sadly, Laziness with a capital "L."

                  If no one is paying attention they will continue on their lazy ways, APU the latest poster child for this.
                  Last edited by tsull; 01-04-2021, 12:52 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                    I just had a conversation about the Mankato townsfolk refusing to support the program because it's not D1 - despite the football team being one of the best in the country that produces it's fair share of NFL talent.
                    If the quality of football is the issue, they should only watch the NFL. They certainly shouldn't watch high school football.

                    The people making that claim probably can't tell the difference between MSU and USD on the field.

                    Your post is great.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Brandon View Post

                      If the quality of football is the issue, they should only watch the NFL. They certainly shouldn't watch high school football.

                      The people making that claim probably can't tell the difference between MSU and USD on the field.

                      Your post is great.
                      Thanks!

                      I've often thought the same. MSU is quality football - most just get hung up on the label. Most wouldn't support the program after a hypothetical jump up to FCS either - ticket prices go up, quality of in-division opponents goes down, no more rivalry games with UMD or WSU... It would just be better to admit that they don't care.

                      I get for some schools, accessibility can be hard - no big media coverage, no big alumni base - but Mankato specifically doesn't have that problem. They are a big, well-known school in a relatively large town for our state, with zero competition in the immediate area. I don't buy the stadium issues either - they have a gorgeous basketball arena that doesn't get more than 300 fans/game. The focus is obviously on hockey during the winter - but that's still pretty bad.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Brandon View Post

                        If the quality of football is the issue, they should only watch the NFL. They certainly shouldn't watch high school football.

                        The people making that claim probably can't tell the difference between MSU and USD on the field.

                        Your post is great.
                        What makes it worse! A star receiver on the local NFL team for Mankato. I say point that out and make these people eat their words after they acknowledge Theilein is a good player. If he were an NFL scrub it would be one thing, but he is making highlight plays almost weekly.

                        Where I live, no college sports. Metro area of 300k, no D1, no D2, no D3, no NAIA. That may describe the West Coast the best. What do we have? A single A baseball team and a WHL junior hockey team and that is it.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

                          What makes it worse! A star receiver on the local NFL team for Mankato. I say point that out and make these people eat their words after they acknowledge Theilein is a good player. If he were an NFL scrub it would be one thing, but he is making highlight plays almost weekly.

                          Where I live, no college sports. Metro area of 300k, no D1, no D2, no D3, no NAIA. That may describe the West Coast the best. What do we have? A single A baseball team and a WHL junior hockey team and that is it.
                          I remember once a few years back - the Vikings played the Jags. Minnesota State had more starters between the two teams than some big FBS schools like Ohio State. Kinda trivial since it was just Thielen and Chris Reed, but still interesting.

                          The local media cashed in on Thielen Fever when he made his breakthrough, but it died down pretty quickly. Most kinda moved on after the "feel good" of his story wore off.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tsull View Post
                            Really great post, Mustang. So much to take in there, perhaps the most insightful was when you wrote, "The effect is a lot of small-time administrators impose their will on their schools because they can't affect the system as a whole. It's their way of implementing their narrow-minded view of the higher ed landscape."

                            Boy this resonates big time. I think of the Humboldt president, who came in from a private D3 school in the East with a private school/east coast background, to a remote state school in Northern California, who cuts a beloved community program (that was featured in the NY Times), turns down money raised to keep football, retires and leaves town with a big grin on her face. She feels no shame. The WWU president not any better.

                            I'm starting to wonder if D2 schools get the bottom-feeders of the doctoral programs when they hire presidents. I haven't seen a lot of good ones.

                            What it comes down to, IMO, is institutional laziness. Since graduating many moons ago in a rather high student populated academic dept., this is how many times I've been contacted by that department: ZERO. Oh, the school wants my money, but my academic dept. has never contacted me for anything. I have hosted school newspaper and cross country reunions that I put together myself. No way the school does this. Many years ago the now-retired WOU track coach called me (I did not run for him) and invited me to a reunion in Portland. I couldn't make it, I was living out of state, but I said, "I was a low-level scrub, how did you find me?" He said, I saw you on the roster and tracked you down." (This was before the internet.) He worked it a little and from what I heard, put together a great reunion. Emphasis on the word WORKED.

                            I get a lot of mailings and calls from the WOU athletic dept., I appreciate that and donate what I can. They were a few $$$ short on a track scholarship being developed by some former athletes and they e-mailed me to see if I could chip in, I did. I appreciate that. School is for academics, of course, and I hear NOTHING from my academic dept., zippity do dah, zilch. WOU athletics? I get the feeling they care, at least from their fund raising efforts towards me. I get many mailings and e-mails each month.

                            OK, if they can come up with an event like a college football game that attracts a few thousand to campus, have at it. When I go to homecoming, they sometimes have cool guest speakers, sometimes they do not ... actually more often than not no speakers. WOU has a nice, small art museum on campus, every time I go to campus it's closed. Nice work. Sheesh, can't they try harder?

                            I recently fired off a letter to the editor remarking on the recent no-vote by the faculty to the WOU president. Shocking to me was a 25% drop in enrollment in the last decade (pre-pandemic), while the state gained 400,000 in population at the same time. This is flat-out incompetence and sadly, Laziness with a capital "L."

                            If no one is paying attention they will continue on their lazy ways, APU the latest poster child for this.
                            A funny story - I graduated SMSU originally with an AA degree. I took a semester off, and then re-enrolled for my BS. I was studying for my finals one evening when I got a call from someone in the building next to me about donating, since I was technically an alumni. But I was also a current student, and therefore broke. I blocked the number, needless to say.

                            Anyway - I think you are correct. It also doesn't help that they rarely have a connection to the area they are supposed to serve. They don't have to see the effects of their decisions on the student body or greater population. If they make a bad one, they aren't humble enough to admit their wrongdoing and fix it - they just leave it for "the next guy," who rarely fixes it either - because he's got his own vision. I was a marketing major and at one point our department was tasked with "saving the school." There were a lot of smart kids in the room - but the department didn't want to hear any criticisms of the institution, or any solutions that involved any effort. There's just no inward reflection. The attitude is "We are perfect, everyone else wants us to fail."

                            The students are more in-tuned with the problem than the admins are, but admins don't like listening to people without doctorates. It's this weird exclusive club they've created. "I have a doctorate in experimental music theory, I can run this institution and nobody else can have an opinion." It's not their ideas that are saving the school - it's ours.

                            I once sat in a student meeting with the admins where the president begged us to "tell our friends to come here, we're desperate." Yeah... no.

                            Rant over - I just think presidents should have more skin in the game, and shouldn't have as much power. There should be at least a board and voting process on major decisions. It shouldn't be left up to one guy who knows everything about underwater stone carving, and nothing about running an institution.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                              A funny story - I graduated SMSU originally with an AA degree. I took a semester off, and then re-enrolled for my BS. I was studying for my finals one evening when I got a call from someone in the building next to me about donating, since I was technically an alumni. But I was also a current student, and therefore broke. I blocked the number, needless to say.

                              Anyway - I think you are correct. It also doesn't help that they rarely have a connection to the area they are supposed to serve. They don't have to see the effects of their decisions on the student body or greater population. If they make a bad one, they aren't humble enough to admit their wrongdoing and fix it - they just leave it for "the next guy," who rarely fixes it either - because he's got his own vision. I was a marketing major and at one point our department was tasked with "saving the school." There were a lot of smart kids in the room - but the department didn't want to hear any criticisms of the institution, or any solutions that involved any effort. There's just no inward reflection. The attitude is "We are perfect, everyone else wants us to fail."

                              The students are more in-tuned with the problem than the admins are, but admins don't like listening to people without doctorates. It's this weird exclusive club they've created. "I have a doctorate in experimental music theory, I can run this institution and nobody else can have an opinion." It's not their ideas that are saving the school - it's ours.

                              I once sat in a student meeting with the admins where the president begged us to "tell our friends to come here, we're desperate." Yeah... no.

                              Rant over - I just think presidents should have more skin in the game, and shouldn't have as much power. There should be at least a board and voting process on major decisions. It shouldn't be left up to one guy who knows everything about underwater stone carving, and nothing about running an institution.
                              Another great post, Mustang. You're so correct on presidents/admins only wanting to talk with people who have doctorates. They don't understand the bigger picture. If they want to increase enrollment and donations, they simply must change their ways.

                              WOU's best president was a guy who previously was a president of Pasadena Junior College, at the time one of the largest JC's in the nation enrollment-wise. WOU was dying at the time, talks of closing it and so forth. Richard Meyers gets hired, first thing he does is walks to the very small downtown and shakes hands with business people. He then hires a guy in the state legislature as a right-hand man, a very political but sound move. In 7/8 years he had near-doubled the enrollment. Billboards sprung up, commercials went on TV; they just tried harder. Oh sure, some academics complained that standards were lowered -- newsflash, WOU isn't Harvard -- but things really moved forward.

                              I agree with having skin in the game. I'll never forget that sh-t-eating grin by the Humboldt president after she cut football; a year or two later she was long gone from Arcata, damage done, no ramifications. WOU hired the current president from EWU, I thought the Northwest connection would've been solid. He did get a building built in Salem, some other things, not all bad; in the end, however, he got a no-vote from the faculty, alienated a lot of people and good freaking grief, enrollment dropped like a rock on his watch, while the state exploded in population. How?

                              While the faculty is focused on their narrow field of study, perhaps the migration habits of the paddlefish, your high school student is looking for a good, affordable place to go to school; your athlete is looking for a good place to participate in sports and get a good education and have a fun experience. They don't care about the paddlefish.

                              * Agree on the marketing, never understood why WOU doesn't just have some Marketing students do their athletic marketing for them. When they were No. 1 in the nation in men's hoops a couple years ago, one couldn't find a schedule poster or anything downtown half a block from campus. Just have the students do the marketing, more will get done and it will be done better.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by tsull View Post

                                Another great post, Mustang. You're so correct on presidents/admins only wanting to talk with people who have doctorates. They don't understand the bigger picture. If they want to increase enrollment and donations, they simply must change their ways.

                                WOU's best president was a guy who previously was a president of Pasadena Junior College, at the time one of the largest JC's in the nation enrollment-wise. WOU was dying at the time, talks of closing it and so forth. Richard Meyers gets hired, first thing he does is walks to the very small downtown and shakes hands with business people. He then hires a guy in the state legislature as a right-hand man, a very political but sound move. In 7/8 years he had near-doubled the enrollment. Billboards sprung up, commercials went on TV; they just tried harder. Oh sure, some academics complained that standards were lowered -- newsflash, WOU isn't Harvard -- but things really moved forward.

                                I agree with having skin in the game. I'll never forget that sh-t-eating grin by the Humboldt president after she cut football; a year or two later she was long gone from Arcata, damage done, no ramifications. WOU hired the current president from EWU, I thought the Northwest connection would've been solid. He did get a building built in Salem, some other things, not all bad; in the end, however, he got a no-vote from the faculty, alienated a lot of people and good freaking grief, enrollment dropped like a rock on his watch, while the state exploded in population. How?

                                While the faculty is focused on their narrow field of study, perhaps the migration habits of the paddlefish, your high school student is looking for a good, affordable place to go to school; your athlete is looking for a good place to participate in sports and get a good education and have a fun experience. They don't care about the paddlefish.

                                * Agree on the marketing, never understood why WOU doesn't just have some Marketing students do their athletic marketing for them. When they were No. 1 in the nation in men's hoops a couple years ago, one couldn't find a schedule poster or anything downtown half a block from campus. Just have the students do the marketing, more will get done and it will be done better.
                                I remember when they even had a sign on I-5 at 2 exits saying this way to WOU (North and South ends of Salem). I get that Salem has grown, but CWU still has those exit signs at both exits and the one for EWU in Cheney mentions NCAA football national champions. I think Washington may do a better job on freeways of promoting small colleges as even Whitman University has signs pointing how to get to it from Highway 12.

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