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  • #76
    Originally posted by tsull View Post

    That's a great post and I get the culture of the state. What it comes down to is trying and wanting to be something in football. I'd respect APU more if they didn't bring out an NFL legend and say they had to drop football. Why not just say we don't like the sport and don't want the sport. Linfield would be Lewis & Clark or Pacific in the fall and in sports (note, L & C and Pacific aren't very good at sports), they have the same tuition costs, similar enrollment. Linfield has around 70 straight winning football seasons and overflow crowds on Saturdays in McMinnville, Oregon. Why? They care.

    UC Davis is one of the few UC schools that has football. They have a deep tradition and have produced some good collegiate coaches (Mike Bellotti, a Chico grad but UC Davis asst.; Chris Petersen; Dan Hawkins, etc.). They've won a lot of games, they're trying to build a $40M athletic facility. Why? Because they care. When I was in college, Whitworth was the dregs of the earth in pretty much all sports. Now they compete with Linfield in football and usually win their conference and go deep into the D3 national men's hoop tournament. Why? They care. WWU dropped football despite a decent tradition. Why? They didn't care.

    You either try hard and care or you don't ... it's not much more complex than that.
    I'm assuming you mean Pacific in Forest Grove and not Stoctkon, CA. That could probably confuse some people as the one in California is a D1 program that went to a few NCAA tournaments before joining the WCC. It can be confusing I know for sure to any not familiar with small colleges and 2 of them in Neighboring states at different levels.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

      I'm assuming you mean Pacific in Forest Grove and not Stoctkon, CA. That could probably confuse some people as the one in California is a D1 program that went to a few NCAA tournaments before joining the WCC. It can be confusing I know for sure to any not familiar with small colleges and 2 of them in Neighboring states at different levels.
      Correct, Pacific University, not University of the Pacific, whose 20-30K football stadium still stands, I think, after cutting the sport. They didn't want football either, but now they're good at ... let me think ... well ... I give up. They suck at everything. But Stockton was voted one of the worst cities in America, thanks something to hang their hat on! Good thing they took away Saturday football afternoons, could've been one of the few positives in the city.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by tsull View Post

        Correct, Pacific University, not University of the Pacific, whose 20-30K football stadium still stands, I think, after cutting the sport. They didn't want football either, but now they're good at ... let me think ... well ... I give up. They suck at everything. But Stockton was voted one of the worst cities in America, thanks something to hang their hat on! Good thing they took away Saturday football afternoons, could've been one of the few positives in the city.
        Before they joined the WCC they were good at basketball for a year and lost in the first round 8 years ago and then faced sanctions, but then again they did become a bottom feeder in the WCC. About 10 years before that they did also have 3 straight tourney appearances where they beat Providence and Pitt. They haven't reached the Sweet 16 since the 70's! They do have one of two Portland Trailblazer former point guards coaching in the WCC in Stoudamire also from Arizona Wildcat fame..... much better than the Jailblazer era in Portland.

        That seems a murky basketball history to me, but they've had a couple of decent runs. I think it also just shows how bad the Big West is that they could win there, but not sniff anything in the WCC. I didn't even realize they had football and had to look up and see it was canceled back in 1995.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

          Before they joined the WCC they were good at basketball for a year and lost in the first round 8 years ago and then faced sanctions, but then again they did become a bottom feeder in the WCC. About 10 years before that they did also have 3 straight tourney appearances where they beat Providence and Pitt. They haven't reached the Sweet 16 since the 70's! They do have one of two Portland Trailblazer former point guards coaching in the WCC in Stoudamire also from Arizona Wildcat fame..... much better than the Jailblazer era in Portland.

          That seems a murky basketball history to me, but they've had a couple of decent runs. I think it also just shows how bad the Big West is that they could win there, but not sniff anything in the WCC. I didn't even realize they had football and had to look up and see it was canceled back in 1995.
          This is pretty deep trivia and I don't know why I remember this, but I think football coaching legend Amos Alonzo Stagg, coached at Pacific in California.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by tsull View Post

            This is pretty deep trivia and I don't know why I remember this, but I think football coaching legend Amos Alonzo Stagg, coached at Pacific in California.
            I only remember it because ESPN used to have their Mid-Major Top 10 and Pacific was in it. Other teams like Creighton, Northern Iowa, Wichita State and Butler were always in it too, but most of those teams joined other conferences or major conferences like Butler and Creighton. That those schools have a chance to join a bigger conference, but no one on the West Coast other than Utah and TCU has really had a chance to join a power conference is a problem here in the West. MWC back then could have become that, but the departures of their big schools to the Pac-12 and Big 12 I know hurt the conference and now in power rankings and NET rankings the WCC is higher than the MWC.

            Would you believe that the WCC has 5 teams in the top 100 of the current NET rankings? That is just two less than the Pac-12 and Santa Clara and USF are higher than WSU and the WCC also has LMU at 102 just barely out of the top 100 with 2 less teams. What is more surprising, just one WCC team has a ranking below Washington of the Pac-12. The Mountain West also has 4 teams in the top 100, but also two sub 300 teams which the WCC and Pac-12 don't have. Another strange stat for you, WCC went 10-8 against power conferences while the Pac-12 went 4-8 against the other Power 6 conferences (including Big East) and even taking out Gonzaga's 5 wins that still means the WCC did better than the Pac-12.

            There really has been a shift of power in college hoops here in the West I think, which most of the nation won't see These stats are quite surprising to me and may show a new basketball power structure in the West. I find it sad that this has happened to the MWC as a few years ago they were close to becoming a power conference at least on the basketball side, although last year San Diego State was looking at a top 2 seed before the tourney was canceled. In football though, just the MWC and Pac-12 left in the D1-FBS West of the Rockies.

            Here's the link if you want to look at the west coast conferences NCAA rankings for a deeper dive: https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basket...l-net-rankings
            Last edited by Wildcat Khan; 01-11-2021, 10:48 PM.

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            • #81
              Great stuff on those hoop stats. I think the WCC often gets ripped off as one year I think St Mary's won 27 games and did not go to the NCAA tournament.

              I think the three best head coaches on the west coast are Mark Few of Gonzaga, Randy Bennett of St Mary's, and Brian Dutcher of San Diego State, not one in the Pac-12.

              I think San Diego State is still pretty good this year, I haven't checked. Boise State is currently 10-0. Utah State won the title last year or maybe the year before in the conference tournament, they've been pretty good and have beaten San Diego State. I'm amazed how far the Pac-12 has fallen.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by tsull View Post
                Great stuff on those hoop stats. I think the WCC often gets ripped off as one year I think St Mary's won 27 games and did not go to the NCAA tournament.

                I think the three best head coaches on the west coast are Mark Few of Gonzaga, Randy Bennett of St Mary's, and Brian Dutcher of San Diego State, not one in the Pac-12.

                I think San Diego State is still pretty good this year, I haven't checked. Boise State is currently 10-0. Utah State won the title last year or maybe the year before in the conference tournament, they've been pretty good and have beaten San Diego State. I'm amazed how far the Pac-12 has fallen.
                Same on the Pac-12. If you took top of MWC and top of WCC you'd likely have a 7th power conference in basketball. I never see that happening, but the MWC did court Gonzaga. I agree on the 3 best coaches and BYU has a pretty good one too and I saw that Nevada got Steve Alford back in the MWC and lost by 7 combined points in two games last week to San Diego State. BYU was a top 15 team last season too before losing in conference tourney finals and an 'off season' still finds them in the top 50. BYU also did something ASU and UCLA couldn't do, beat San Diego State.

                Too many out West here think like Bill Walton about college hoops. Too bad no D2 hoops in the GNAC this year.
                Last edited by Wildcat Khan; 01-11-2021, 11:03 PM.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

                  Same on the Pac-12. If you took top of MWC and top of WCC you'd likely have a 7th power conference in basketball. I never see that happening, but the MWC did court Gonzaga. I agree on the 3 best coaches and BYU has a pretty good one too and I saw that Nevada got Steve Alford back in the MWC and lost by 7 combined points in two games last week to San Diego State. BYU was a top 15 team last season too before losing in conference tourney finals and an 'off season' still finds them in the top 50. BYU also did something ASU and UCLA couldn't do, beat San Diego State.

                  Too many out West here think like Bill Walton about college hoops. Too bad no D2 hoops in the GNAC this year.
                  I've been a Pac-10/12 honk my whole life, but the league and their commissioner have gotten fat and lazy. Their hiring in football and men's hoops has been sketchy. They think facilities is more important than coaching. UW proclaims to be a blue blood in football and they don't even conduct a national search for a coach; OSU goes with the old QB, who was the only UW assistant to not have his contract extended. Chip Kelly isn't Chip Kelly anymore. CU hires Dorrell, whom I didn't think was good at UCLA; Arizona goes from Sumlin to Fisch, bad on both instances, and so on. Hoops a little better in the hires. Bad TV contract, bad commissioner, college presidents who won't demand change. It will never be the SEC, but they can be better.

                  Correct on BYU also being good in hoops. MWC and WCC basketball is just as entertaining as the Pac-12 and coached better.

                  Regarding GNAC hoops, looks like some movement there as some of the non-playing teams will play in-state foes, or so I've heard. Better than nothing.

                  Wish West Coast cared about small college football; for the most part, they don't.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by tsull View Post

                    I've been a Pac-10/12 honk my whole life, but the league and their commissioner have gotten fat and lazy. Their hiring in football and men's hoops has been sketchy. They think facilities is more important than coaching. UW proclaims to be a blue blood in football and they don't even conduct a national search for a coach; OSU goes with the old QB, who was the only UW assistant to not have his contract extended. Chip Kelly isn't Chip Kelly anymore. CU hires Dorrell, whom I didn't think was good at UCLA; Arizona goes from Sumlin to Fisch, bad on both instances, and so on. Hoops a little better in the hires. Bad TV contract, bad commissioner, college presidents who won't demand change. It will never be the SEC, but they can be better.

                    Correct on BYU also being good in hoops. MWC and WCC basketball is just as entertaining as the Pac-12 and coached better.

                    Regarding GNAC hoops, looks like some movement there as some of the non-playing teams will play in-state foes, or so I've heard. Better than nothing.

                    Wish West Coast cared about small college football; for the most part, they don't.
                    UW... don't get me started. They think they can win a men's hoops title in the next ten years. This year, that NET ranking is 250! That is low major territory!

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by tsull View Post

                      I've been a Pac-10/12 honk my whole life, but the league and their commissioner have gotten fat and lazy. Their hiring in football and men's hoops has been sketchy. They think facilities is more important than coaching. UW proclaims to be a blue blood in football and they don't even conduct a national search for a coach; OSU goes with the old QB, who was the only UW assistant to not have his contract extended. Chip Kelly isn't Chip Kelly anymore. CU hires Dorrell, whom I didn't think was good at UCLA; Arizona goes from Sumlin to Fisch, bad on both instances, and so on. Hoops a little better in the hires. Bad TV contract, bad commissioner, college presidents who won't demand change. It will never be the SEC, but they can be better.

                      Correct on BYU also being good in hoops. MWC and WCC basketball is just as entertaining as the Pac-12 and coached better.

                      Regarding GNAC hoops, looks like some movement there as some of the non-playing teams will play in-state foes, or so I've heard. Better than nothing.

                      Wish West Coast cared about small college football; for the most part, they don't.
                      I don't feel this is even remotely close to reality.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Brandon View Post

                        I don't feel this is even remotely close to reality.
                        Ha, so true. I'm a WSU Cougar fan so I love this comment. UW is hanging on to a co-national title won in 1991. They've had their moments, but are not a blue blood.

                        Going back to D2 football on the west coast, too many schools look at it as an evil, or something that must be banned from campus ... because if you ban football, your student body will naturally get smarter, you'll become mini-Harvard, you'll cure cancer, and all will be right with the world.

                        In reality, you eliminate a community event -- Arcata, California recently lost their largest community event, by far -- you reduce the low-income/minority enrollment at your school (many admins and profs would never admit this, but they like doing this), and take away 100's of opportunities for students. Cost-benefit analysis? Only 10% of FBS schools are making money, so it's not a money-making proposal. Montana and their 25,000-per game attendance loses money in FCS. Almost every hoop program in America loses money. West Coast schools don't look at it as a student benefit, but a student problem. I'll tell you what a student problem is: The adding of 6-figure administrators, who have no connection with students, and crank up the cost of tuition to pay their salaries.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Brandon View Post

                          I don't feel this is even remotely close to reality.
                          What is bad? UW fans always bash WSU... even the year UW was winless! Seriously, a winless team as a blue blood? They also think in hoops that they are the premiere college in the state... yet have the lowest rating in the Pac-12 per NCAA metrics by far while the #1 team in the nation is Spokane. They were sorta right on basketball, Romar did bring in top recruits when there and put them into the NBA, but it didn't mean winning. Now Romar is a coach in... the WCC.

                          Even the year Richland won the state title in 4A (top level) football all you heard about was how great their opponent from the west side was and how dominating it would be. Well, in a way they were right as Richland dominated that game. Seattle controls the sports narrative in Washington and probably Eugene/Portland in Oregon, rest is garbage teams to them.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by tsull View Post

                            Ha, so true. I'm a WSU Cougar fan so I love this comment. UW is hanging on to a co-national title won in 1991. They've had their moments, but are not a blue blood.

                            Going back to D2 football on the west coast, too many schools look at it as an evil, or something that must be banned from campus ... because if you ban football, your student body will naturally get smarter, you'll become mini-Harvard, you'll cure cancer, and all will be right with the world.

                            In reality, you eliminate a community event -- Arcata, California recently lost their largest community event, by far -- you reduce the low-income/minority enrollment at your school (many admins and profs would never admit this, but they like doing this), and take away 100's of opportunities for students. Cost-benefit analysis? Only 10% of FBS schools are making money, so it's not a money-making proposal. Montana and their 25,000-per game attendance loses money in FCS. Almost every hoop program in America loses money. West Coast schools don't look at it as a student benefit, but a student problem. I'll tell you what a student problem is: The adding of 6-figure administrators, who have no connection with students, and crank up the cost of tuition to pay their salaries.
                            I don't know if I said it in this thread, but most D2 schools are service-based schools that serve the needs of the surrounding areas and are part of the culture of those communities. It's ridiculous to pretend that Directional State is Harvard or will ever be.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

                              What is bad? UW fans always bash WSU... even the year UW was winless! Seriously, a winless team as a blue blood? They also think in hoops that they are the premiere college in the state... yet have the lowest rating in the Pac-12 per NCAA metrics by far while the #1 team in the nation is Spokane. They were sorta right on basketball, Romar did bring in top recruits when there and put them into the NBA, but it didn't mean winning. Now Romar is a coach in... the WCC.

                              Even the year Richland won the state title in 4A (top level) football all you heard about was how great their opponent from the west side was and how dominating it would be. Well, in a way they were right as Richland dominated that game. Seattle controls the sports narrative in Washington and probably Eugene/Portland in Oregon, rest is garbage teams to them.
                              I just think if you asked any random person to name the top 50 FBS programs in the country, it might not make that list. That's why it's not a blue blood. If you get named in everyone's top 10 list, you're a blue blood.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Brandon View Post

                                I just think if you asked any random person to name the top 50 FBS programs in the country, it might not make that list. That's why it's not a blue blood. If you get named in everyone's top 10 list, you're a blue blood.
                                I'll agree there with you. That is a very good way and I would say Alabama, Clemson, tOSU, and maybe Oklahoma are the blue bloods of FBS.

                                D2 wise, I think it may be changing in recent years.

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