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  • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post
    I found this discussion on another forum that I read semi-regularly, though I'm not a member of it. It's short, and most of it is your average forum dribble - but some of the responses are in stark contrast to what we believe, so I thought it would be interesting to share.

    https://www.city-data.com/forum/coll...due-covid.html

    Yes - college is about education. Sports is one way for some to secure the opportunity for that education where there may not be any other opportunity. I also believe higher ed should carry the torch for all aspects of society, and not just the liberal arts - since we've used sports to advance society economically, socially, scientifically, etc. It's no different than getting a music scholarship, IMO.

    I would agree with the sentiment that colleges should only allow students to play who are an academic fit. Many colleges are good at this while others are not.

    To flip the script on it though - I think college sports helps level the playing field academically in some ways too. It gives some universities a leg up financially, while also securing some bright students for schools that wouldn't otherwise get them - and everyone benefits. Football players are smart too.

    Do changes need to be made to the system? Absolutely. That doesn't mean college sports aren't a vital part of the experience. As mentioned in this thread a bunch already, college sports are often for the community's benefit as well. It's about looking outside just yourself.

    The original poster on that linked thread says UC Davis cut football, they never did and never will. Getting information was easy BEFORE the internet, now people are more wrong than right. Five second Google search shows UC Davis has football. I don't suffer fools, obviously, or dumb college administrators, or clowns who think UC Riverside is going to become Stanford. The UC schools think they're so freaking great and far superior than the blue collar CSU schools. That's only true in some instances. I've met plenty of really smart CSU grads and plenty of dumb UC grads.

    College sports has opened many doors for economically poor students. There's a ton of administrators who don't want sports and just hold their nose to keep basketball because they have to have some semi-big time sport. They really don't want hoops either ... like I said in a previous post, a college president was bragging about cutting sports and got big cheers for it from the faculty of a football school.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by tsull View Post

      The original poster on that linked thread says UC Davis cut football, they never did and never will. Getting information was easy BEFORE the internet, now people are more wrong than right. Five second Google search shows UC Davis has football. I don't suffer fools, obviously, or dumb college administrators, or clowns who think UC Riverside is going to become Stanford. The UC schools think they're so freaking great and far superior than the blue collar CSU schools. That's only true in some instances. I've met plenty of really smart CSU grads and plenty of dumb UC grads.

      College sports has opened many doors for economically poor students. There's a ton of administrators who don't want sports and just hold their nose to keep basketball because they have to have some semi-big time sport. They really don't want hoops either ... like I said in a previous post, a college president was bragging about cutting sports and got big cheers for it from the faculty of a football school.
      College prestige, and rankings, is a bizarre thing. Every school wants to be in the same conversation as the big boys. It's a very lucrative business venture. We've effectively led our kids to believe that it's the only aspect of college that really matters. Students, and schools, who aren't in the upper echelon create every metric in the book to make people think they are. The flipside is that students that get into non-competitive schools don't take any pride in their institution, which leads to a real lack of community and atmosphere. It's kinda sad. That's just a bunch of random thoughts all over the place.

      It seems like faculty are upset at the extra attention and resources dedicated to athletics. If we subtracted college athletics across the board and put the focus solely on academics like they "want," the department rivalries would come to light. STEM faculty would be upset that Liberal Arts faculty get more attention and resources, and vice versa. The same problem would exist, just with a different focal point. Schools that don't have an athletic program often have no marketing power either. North Dakota State is a good school, but without football - they wouldn't have anywhere near the attention that they get nationally. Faculty love reaping the benefits of an athletic program whether they know it or not, too.

      Like I said, I think college should carry the torch for all aspects of society - and not purely "intellectual" ones as defined by the gatekeepers. There is no argument that football is any more or less intellectual than poetry and violin playing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

        College prestige, and rankings, is a bizarre thing. Every school wants to be in the same conversation as the big boys. It's a very lucrative business venture. We've effectively led our kids to believe that it's the only aspect of college that really matters. Students, and schools, who aren't in the upper echelon create every metric in the book to make people think they are. The flipside is that students that get into non-competitive schools don't take any pride in their institution, which leads to a real lack of community and atmosphere. It's kinda sad. That's just a bunch of random thoughts all over the place.

        It seems like faculty are upset at the extra attention and resources dedicated to athletics. If we subtracted college athletics across the board and put the focus solely on academics like they "want," the department rivalries would come to light. STEM faculty would be upset that Liberal Arts faculty get more attention and resources, and vice versa. The same problem would exist, just with a different focal point. Schools that don't have an athletic program often have no marketing power either. North Dakota State is a good school, but without football - they wouldn't have anywhere near the attention that they get nationally. Faculty love reaping the benefits of an athletic program whether they know it or not, too.

        Like I said, I think college should carry the torch for all aspects of society - and not purely "intellectual" ones as defined by the gatekeepers. There is no argument that football is any more or less intellectual than poetry and violin playing.
        What I don't get regarding small colleges, is to protect their little alphabet soup -- D3, NAIA, D2 -- they'd rather not have a huge fall event than to play someone in an alien division. It's freaking nuts.

        EOU, SOU, and WOU, are all round-robined to death on their schedule, EOU and SOU playing 3 opponents twice, same with WOU, which is now two. But my goodness, we simply can't play each other because one is D2 and the others are NAIA. Let's truck it to Havre, Montana, to play an opponent we just played, that makes sense. I'm surprised presidents and A.D.'s sign off on this ... which is the reason they are administrators and not in private business.

        The problem is the only people who think like this are the people at the university. The average fan wants to see a freaking game on a Saturday against a known opponent. I remember one year WOU scheduled a very good team from the south, Carson-Newman, I think. I thought it was a law firm, great opponent, however, but that takes the place of Southern Oregon down the road. It's nuts. I get it at the high Power 5 level; I don't get it at the small college level. Then you get schools cancelling the sport because there aren't enough people in their alphabet soup for football, but they're there in the winter for hoops and their 400-person attendance. It's just absolutely crazy.

        Got news for people, no matter how hard APU tries, they'll never be UCLA, USC, UC San Diego, UC Irvine, Loyola Marymount, Pepperdine, etc. Cal Baptist jumped up to D-1, they will never, ever, ever, ever get to the Sweet 16 or win a national title in anything in D-1 ... never, not golf, not backgammon, nothing. There's not one kid in the L.A. area who is saying, "You know what, now that the church school is D-1 instead of D2, I'm going there, because that means it will now be hopping instead of boring as hell ... oops, not supposed to say hell at Cal Baptist.

        See why I think administrators aren't the brightest bulbs?

        * Trust me, there's not a D2 administrator on the West Coast who is enjoying this thread, they want it to go away, ASAP. They're even more surprised that people are paying attention to their little antics.

        Comment


        • I went a bit off-topic from SW's post, which was a great one. Totally agree with his points on gatekeepers, academic department in-fighting, and silly college rankings. Also, what I really liked in SW's post is the students who go to so-called non-competitive institutions end up not having any pride in their school, there's no football on Saturdays, no one is at the hoops games ... they'll stick with my D-1 allegiance to the local Pac-12 school or the Gonzaga bandwagon. Then when the school turns around and asks for money, they're shocked these same former students don't want to give back, when all they did was make college a boring experience for them. Good grief.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tsull View Post
            I went a bit off-topic from SW's post, which was a great one. Totally agree with his points on gatekeepers, academic department in-fighting, and silly college rankings. Also, what I really liked in SW's post is the students who go to so-called non-competitive institutions end up not having any pride in their school, there's no football on Saturdays, no one is at the hoops games ... they'll stick with my D-1 allegiance to the local Pac-12 school or the Gonzaga bandwagon. Then when the school turns around and asks for money, they're shocked these same former students don't want to give back, when all they did was make college a boring experience for them. Good grief.
            I totally agree. Students maintain their allegiances to the big D1 schools. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think students should take pride in the school they are going too as well. I'm not saying there aren't any, but I never really met another "fan" of the football team in school. It was mainly other athletes supporting their friends - which is certainly great, but imagine if we could even get 100 more kids in the stadium on Saturday? The community-at-large was fairly supportive, though we were also the only show in town on Saturday's for the most part.

            I knew a couple of big sports fans in HS who went to D2 schools - they could tell me everything about the Gophers and Vikings, but couldn't name the starting QB of their college team. They sure took a lot of pride in Adam Thielen though, being "one of them" though... I'm not saying every student needs to be a "hardcore" fan of their college's teams, but a little basic support would go a long way towards building an atmosphere. Lots of people say "but I don't like the stadium" - how do you justify building a new stadium if you can't fill the one you already have?

            There was an excellent video made about college identity - the producers gathered up a handful of community college students and Ivy League kids. They paired them up and asked them questions about their experiences and how it affects their personal identity. Then the pair would discuss it. The community college kids took no pride in their school, where the Ivy League kids - it meant everything to them. I will post a link if I can find it later.

            Part of the burden rests on the shoulders of the school and alumni too. As we said, the schools need to market themselves better and invest a little more in their athletic infrastructure. It's easier said than done because the faculty will push back, but there are ways to soften some of the rough edges on these programs that don't involve a lot of money.

            The dirty little secret is - maybe not all, maybe not even a majority - but there are a lot of athletes that end up at these small schools "just to play football," and end up leaving with something far greater. I've met alumni at my own school who found their path academically and have gone on to do great things outside of sports. I've even talked to former players on this board who found some spark in their studies and translated it into something outside of sports. The faculty just don't see that.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

              I totally agree. Students maintain their allegiances to the big D1 schools. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think students should take pride in the school they are going too as well. I'm not saying there aren't any, but I never really met another "fan" of the football team in school. It was mainly other athletes supporting their friends - which is certainly great, but imagine if we could even get 100 more kids in the stadium on Saturday? The community-at-large was fairly supportive, though we were also the only show in town on Saturday's for the most part.

              I knew a couple of big sports fans in HS who went to D2 schools - they could tell me everything about the Gophers and Vikings, but couldn't name the starting QB of their college team. They sure took a lot of pride in Adam Thielen though, being "one of them" though... I'm not saying every student needs to be a "hardcore" fan of their college's teams, but a little basic support would go a long way towards building an atmosphere. Lots of people say "but I don't like the stadium" - how do you justify building a new stadium if you can't fill the one you already have?

              There was an excellent video made about college identity - the producers gathered up a handful of community college students and Ivy League kids. They paired them up and asked them questions about their experiences and how it affects their personal identity. Then the pair would discuss it. The community college kids took no pride in their school, where the Ivy League kids - it meant everything to them. I will post a link if I can find it later.

              Part of the burden rests on the shoulders of the school and alumni too. As we said, the schools need to market themselves better and invest a little more in their athletic infrastructure. It's easier said than done because the faculty will push back, but there are ways to soften some of the rough edges on these programs that don't involve a lot of money.

              The dirty little secret is - maybe not all, maybe not even a majority - but there are a lot of athletes that end up at these small schools "just to play football," and end up leaving with something far greater. I've met alumni at my own school who found their path academically and have gone on to do great things outside of sports. I've even talked to former players on this board who found some spark in their studies and translated it into something outside of sports. The faculty just don't see that.
              What I don't get is these presidents/admins do little to generate school spirit or loyalty. As noted, my academic department has contacted me zero times since I graduated. Oddly, a wealthy friend of mine who went to another university, has never been contacted by his academic department or even the university ... ever. I do get athletic dept. requests and general requests from the foundation overall. I can allocate my funds to my academic dept. there. It would be nice to hear from my academic dept.

              When I was a kid, one could buy a button for $5 that got a grade schooler into all the University of Idaho athletic events for the entire year. It was called "The Knothole Gang." That's how we got interested in UI sports, even though they were bad and 8 miles from WSU, I went to those games, too, but not with a special button. I suggested once that anyone 18 and under should be able to go to WOU sports events free, that's how you build a fan base. It fell on deaf ears, that was over a decade ago, today those "kids" could become fans and donors. There's never any kids at WOU games anyway. Another thing I thought would be cool would be to have football alumni day, anyone who played football at WOU gets in free to that game and is introduced at halftime, same with retired coaches and staff. This would be a minimal effort with maximum payoff. They do this in men's basketball -- it's run by an alum, and they raise a good amount of dough.

              I looked at the bios of the WWU, CWU, and WOU presidents. WWU's is a former guy at Oregon State, Chemical Engineering background, impressive bio. WOU's guy has a small school background in Economics. The outgoing CWU president has a very strong background in communications and public relations. Ah, there we have it, someone who actually dealt with people throughout his academic career, and I think it really showed in his tenure in Ellensburg, highly thought of president. WOU's president just received a "no" vote from the faculy; WWU's president is overseeing the school's latest scandal.

              A lot of stuff these colleges don't do costs little and the payoff is great. At least the WOU bookstore is open on game days, that used to not be the case. One of these days other cool things on campus will be open on game days, but I'm not holding my breath. Colleges too often want your dough; they don't want a relationship. (Note: WOU athletics has done a good job connecting with me over the years; the rest of the school so-so.)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tsull View Post

                What I don't get is these presidents/admins do little to generate school spirit or loyalty. As noted, my academic department has contacted me zero times since I graduated. Oddly, a wealthy friend of mine who went to another university, has never been contacted by his academic department or even the university ... ever. I do get athletic dept. requests and general requests from the foundation overall. I can allocate my funds to my academic dept. there. It would be nice to hear from my academic dept.

                When I was a kid, one could buy a button for $5 that got a grade schooler into all the University of Idaho athletic events for the entire year. It was called "The Knothole Gang." That's how we got interested in UI sports, even though they were bad and 8 miles from WSU, I went to those games, too, but not with a special button. I suggested once that anyone 18 and under should be able to go to WOU sports events free, that's how you build a fan base. It fell on deaf ears, that was over a decade ago, today those "kids" could become fans and donors. There's never any kids at WOU games anyway. Another thing I thought would be cool would be to have football alumni day, anyone who played football at WOU gets in free to that game and is introduced at halftime, same with retired coaches and staff. This would be a minimal effort with maximum payoff. They do this in men's basketball -- it's run by an alum, and they raise a good amount of dough.

                I looked at the bios of the WWU, CWU, and WOU presidents. WWU's is a former guy at Oregon State, Chemical Engineering background, impressive bio. WOU's guy has a small school background in Economics. The outgoing CWU president has a very strong background in communications and public relations. Ah, there we have it, someone who actually dealt with people throughout his academic career, and I think it really showed in his tenure in Ellensburg, highly thought of president. WOU's president just received a "no" vote from the faculy; WWU's president is overseeing the school's latest scandal.

                A lot of stuff these colleges don't do costs little and the payoff is great. At least the WOU bookstore is open on game days, that used to not be the case. One of these days other cool things on campus will be open on game days, but I'm not holding my breath. Colleges too often want your dough; they don't want a relationship. (Note: WOU athletics has done a good job connecting with me over the years; the rest of the school so-so.)
                I wanted to do something similar out here. I figured if we could get an average of 100 extra fans on gameday to start, we'd generate a little more much needed revenue for the football program in the short term - and possibly fuel a larger fanbase in the long term. It doesn't take much. The hard part here is competing with the weather, the later part of the season you'd be lucky to get a few hundred fans in the gates. I wish they would have installed heaters on the concourse when they built the stadium. A tailgating association between various alumni groups would be cool too - encourage away fans to come by organizing tailgating opportunities.

                How does WOU do at reaching out to local communities in the surrounding towns? That's one big flaw we have here. One thing I'd like to do is get the football team to host a spring practice in a nearby town and make an event of it. It would be a low-cost way to get ourselves in front of people we wouldn't normally do. The Gophers actually do that for hockey, they'll host a practice somewhere far away. It works for them. I think administrations want to see an immediate return and don't realize that's not how things work. You plant a seed, or foster a spark in someone at 10 years old - you may see that return in a big way 10 years down the road. Academically, I'd like to open up a multi-purpose campus building in the town I live in. The primary use would be PSEO/adult courses and community education, but it could also be used for various other things. It would revitalize our dilapidated downtown while also getting our name out in the community.

                I've got so many ideas, I just don't have the time to work on them. Work and COVID and all...

                How is WOU for infrastructure? I mean, their campus buildings and resources - do they keep up with that at all? Schools often discount how much that matters. They like to think students strictly care about academic offerings - but that's not the case. It doesn't take a lot to make a big difference. Our previous administrations dreaded the idea of spending any money on infrastructure at all. They'd make the staff paint a wall every couple of years, neglecting the 1960's dark-stained wood-paneling everywhere, and the stained ceiling tiles - I once had to help manage a focus group in a room that still had a functioning 30-year old TV in it. It just doesn't look good on college visits. Thankfully, some of it is being addressed.

                Comment


                • Now that you mention it, my academic department never reached out to me either - they were very small and going through a transition period when I graduated, so I get that. Being that I was a business major, you'd think they'd want to at least host some networking opportunities between alumni or seminars or something. I might be willing to kick them a few bucks just for reaching out as well. They probably just don't have the resources to manage that type of project.

                  That's the biggest downside to these types of schools. The education is one aspect, but the networking with alumni is truly what sets Harvard apart from the rest of us. Even though we can't do it on the same level, better alumni relations would foster some interesting results. We have "homecoming," and that's about it. It's mainly for the football guys still in the area, IMO.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post
                    Now that you mention it, my academic department never reached out to me either - they were very small and going through a transition period when I graduated, so I get that. Being that I was a business major, you'd think they'd want to at least host some networking opportunities between alumni or seminars or something. I might be willing to kick them a few bucks just for reaching out as well. They probably just don't have the resources to manage that type of project.

                    That's the biggest downside to these types of schools. The education is one aspect, but the networking with alumni is truly what sets Harvard apart from the rest of us. Even though we can't do it on the same level, better alumni relations would foster some interesting results. We have "homecoming," and that's about it. It's mainly for the football guys still in the area, IMO.
                    My department has reached out. And the Athletic Department (because I had joined the booster club for a while). And the Alumni Association. As well as the Foundation.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                      I wanted to do something similar out here. I figured if we could get an average of 100 extra fans on gameday to start, we'd generate a little more much needed revenue for the football program in the short term - and possibly fuel a larger fanbase in the long term. It doesn't take much. The hard part here is competing with the weather, the later part of the season you'd be lucky to get a few hundred fans in the gates. I wish they would have installed heaters on the concourse when they built the stadium. A tailgating association between various alumni groups would be cool too - encourage away fans to come by organizing tailgating opportunities.

                      How does WOU do at reaching out to local communities in the surrounding towns? That's one big flaw we have here. One thing I'd like to do is get the football team to host a spring practice in a nearby town and make an event of it. It would be a low-cost way to get ourselves in front of people we wouldn't normally do. The Gophers actually do that for hockey, they'll host a practice somewhere far away. It works for them. I think administrations want to see an immediate return and don't realize that's not how things work. You plant a seed, or foster a spark in someone at 10 years old - you may see that return in a big way 10 years down the road. Academically, I'd like to open up a multi-purpose campus building in the town I live in. The primary use would be PSEO/adult courses and community education, but it could also be used for various other things. It would revitalize our dilapidated downtown while also getting our name out in the community.

                      I've got so many ideas, I just don't have the time to work on them. Work and COVID and all...

                      How is WOU for infrastructure? I mean, their campus buildings and resources - do they keep up with that at all? Schools often discount how much that matters. They like to think students strictly care about academic offerings - but that's not the case. It doesn't take a lot to make a big difference. Our previous administrations dreaded the idea of spending any money on infrastructure at all. They'd make the staff paint a wall every couple of years, neglecting the 1960's dark-stained wood-paneling everywhere, and the stained ceiling tiles - I once had to help manage a focus group in a room that still had a functioning 30-year old TV in it. It just doesn't look good on college visits. Thankfully, some of it is being addressed.
                      I would say Western Oregon does a great job with grounds, buildings, and infrastructure. They've won some national awards for groundskeeping. The school looks great aesthetically.

                      I think the football program does a nice job with outteach, they have done scrimmages at West Salem High School and the local high school. They have a couple football camps, one run by a former WOU player and now NFL receiver Tyrell Williams, which is free to all kids.

                      I'm very baffled about overall admissions at the school as in the last decade it's dropped 25%, while the state has grown by 400,000 people. I think they really need to look at what they are doing there instead of just throwing their hands up and shaking their heads.

                      They miss on the little things athletically like letting kids in free to games, putting schedule posters up, promoting their program in the small towns that are in their county and so on. It's like they've thrown up the white flag to Oregon and Oregon State, while going to a Western Oregon game is a hell of a lot cheaper and can be just as much fun.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tsull View Post

                        I would say Western Oregon does a great job with grounds, buildings, and infrastructure. They've won some national awards for groundskeeping. The school looks great aesthetically.

                        I think the football program does a nice job with outteach, they have done scrimmages at West Salem High School and the local high school. They have a couple football camps, one run by a former WOU player and now NFL receiver Tyrell Williams, which is free to all kids.

                        I'm very baffled about overall admissions at the school as in the last decade it's dropped 25%, while the state has grown by 400,000 people. I think they really need to look at what they are doing there instead of just throwing their hands up and shaking their heads.

                        They miss on the little things athletically like letting kids in free to games, putting schedule posters up, promoting their program in the small towns that are in their county and so on. It's like they've thrown up the white flag to Oregon and Oregon State, while going to a Western Oregon game is a hell of a lot cheaper and can be just as much fun.
                        How is the PR? Being so closed to Salem and with no D1 University there I'd think their PR machine could get some interest from there. I know Eugene wouldn't help, as that is pretty much all UofO but Salem seems like a place that just having more of their name out there might help.

                        I know it about as close as Ellensburg is to Yakima and that drive is harder with the ridge between the two places, yet there is PR about CWU in Yakima. Even if it is just having sports schedules up in the local restaurants like HS's do I'm sure it would help.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

                          How is the PR? Being so closed to Salem and with no D1 University there I'd think their PR machine could get some interest from there. I know Eugene wouldn't help, as that is pretty much all UofO but Salem seems like a place that just having more of their name out there might help.

                          I know it about as close as Ellensburg is to Yakima and that drive is harder with the ridge between the two places, yet there is PR about CWU in Yakima. Even if it is just having sports schedules up in the local restaurants like HS's do I'm sure it would help.
                          Western Oregon is 15 miles from Salem so about half the distance from Yakima to Ellensburg. When I've gone to Salem I haven't seen much for public relations about Western Oregon University. They did, however, purchase a building last year for classes which I thought was a nice step in the right direction. They've also reached out to the Latino communities pretty well over the years, which in the past has bolstered enrollment.

                          Like most of the cities in Oregon, Salem has grown, too. I'm just really puzzled about Western Oregon's sharp enrollment drop, while the state was booming in population. I put that solely on the president and administration for not being in a crisis moment years ago and addressing this enormous deficiency. Things don't just happen out of the blue, there are reasons.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by tsull View Post

                            I would say Western Oregon does a great job with grounds, buildings, and infrastructure. They've won some national awards for groundskeeping. The school looks great aesthetically.

                            I think the football program does a nice job with outteach, they have done scrimmages at West Salem High School and the local high school. They have a couple football camps, one run by a former WOU player and now NFL receiver Tyrell Williams, which is free to all kids.

                            I'm very baffled about overall admissions at the school as in the last decade it's dropped 25%, while the state has grown by 400,000 people. I think they really need to look at what they are doing there instead of just throwing their hands up and shaking their heads.

                            They miss on the little things athletically like letting kids in free to games, putting schedule posters up, promoting their program in the small towns that are in their county and so on. It's like they've thrown up the white flag to Oregon and Oregon State, while going to a Western Oregon game is a hell of a lot cheaper and can be just as much fun.
                            That seems to be how most admissions departments are these days... "nobody is coming here and it's their fault." I've heard it time and time again.

                            That's cool about WOU. We missed a lot of those little upkeep things. Our campus could be very nice if they'd give it a decent spit shine every 10-15 years, but it's mainly existed in the 1960s-1970s.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by IronOre View Post

                              My department has reached out. And the Athletic Department (because I had joined the booster club for a while). And the Alumni Association. As well as the Foundation.
                              That's kinda neat. It's those small things that build the community.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                                Networking with alumni is truly what sets Harvard apart from the rest of us. Even though we can't do it on the same level, better alumni relations would foster some interesting results. We have "homecoming," and that's about it. It's mainly for the football guys still in the area, IMO.
                                This is truly what sets "Ivy Leagues" apart. They network, they hire graduate to non-entry level position, they look out for each other, because it furthers the brand.

                                Comment

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