Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Marketing, promoting and caring about it

Collapse

Support The Site!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

    Yeah. IMO, the NCAA needs to stop leaving schools to their own devices to determine attendance figures. They need a standardized system for collecting data that's reported directly to the NCAA for verification. If the numbers are tampered with or fudged, the program suffers harsh penalties.

    It's clear that the current requirement is not taken seriously by anyone involved. Schools are stretching the numbers anyway they can just to stay FBS. There is no way the MAC meets the current requirements, but they are somehow allowed to stay.

    I also like the idea of minimum facility requirements. If a school can't provide baseline facility infrastructure, they should be relegated to the proper division.

    What bugs me about D1, and basketball specifically - is that the top 10 D2 teams would clean house with the bottom 25%-33% on a consistent basis. There will always be some amount of overlap (NDSU in football, for example) - but when your top D2 teams can run the show against a good portion of the D1 pool - it's time to rethink who goes where.
    Well said. Idaho is the only school I can think of in recent memory that has gone down and not up. ACU for example went up just a few years ago and they are already competing for their conference title with a legit chance to make the tourney. People will look at that, not Idaho and how they aren't even near the top of the Big Sky in football or basketball despite having recently been a FBS school.

    What I would love to see for basketball in the west, the non Pac-12 schools that put money into their programs in both the WCC and MWC to split and form a conference similar to the Big East. I know it won't happen of course, but we can dream of a league with BYU, SDSU, Saint Mary's, Nevada, Colorado State, Gonzaga, Utah State, and Boise State for example and possibly USF. All these schools are currently top 100 schools in basketball and could be a legit power league.
    Last edited by Wildcat Khan; 02-18-2021, 04:17 PM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

      Well said. Idaho is the only school I can think of in recent memory that has gone down and not up. ACU for example went up just a few years ago and they are already competing for their conference title with a legit chance to make the tourney. People will look at that, not Idaho and how they aren't even near the top of the Big Sky in football or basketball despite having recently been a FBS school.

      What I would love to see for basketball in the west, the non Pac-12 schools that put money into their programs in both the WCC and MWC to split and form a conference similar to the Big East. I know it won't happen of course, but we can dream of a league with BYU, SDSU, Saint Mary's, Nevada, Colorado State, Gonzaga, Utah State, and Boise State for example and possibly USF. All these schools are currently top 100 schools in basketball and could be a legit power league.
      Idaho is winless in basketball right now one of two schools in the country to do so. Boise State would never agree to be in a basketball league, they want to get into more of a football oriented conference. Though I do like your idea about that basketball conference especially with St Mary's and others being in there from the Mountain West.

      My theory and I agree with Mark Few, is it these colleges if they're going to decide to play division one, they need to up their game. This goes for the Pac-12, too. UCLA has been horrible in football for years, USC has hired horrifically over the last 30 or 40 years with the exception of Pete Carroll. Arizona State is middling in football and basketball despite having great weather and unreal facilities. Washington is last in the Pac-12 in basketball for the second year in a row.

      I do like in the West that there are more options than just watching people play games for entertainment. That said, there's not a lot of national players in football and basketball in the West. The Pac-12 has had two teams win national titles in the last 60 years. Arizona won one title and UCLA has won two since Wooden retired. Pete Carroll won one national title at USC and no other team has won a national title since Washington 30 years ago, and that was a shared national title.

      Gonzaga has a really good chance to win a national title this year in basketball and that would help not only the WCC but also the West Coast, in my opinion. Then again, I don't know if many people in the West would take notice after a couple months. It's just how we roll here.. check the Mariners, the losingest team in all of pro sports.
      Last edited by tsull; 02-18-2021, 06:45 PM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

        Well said. Idaho is the only school I can think of in recent memory that has gone down and not up. ACU for example went up just a few years ago and they are already competing for their conference title with a legit chance to make the tourney. People will look at that, not Idaho and how they aren't even near the top of the Big Sky in football or basketball despite having recently been a FBS school.

        What I would love to see for basketball in the west, the non Pac-12 schools that put money into their programs in both the WCC and MWC to split and form a conference similar to the Big East. I know it won't happen of course, but we can dream of a league with BYU, SDSU, Saint Mary's, Nevada, Colorado State, Gonzaga, Utah State, and Boise State for example and possibly USF. All these schools are currently top 100 schools in basketball and could be a legit power league.
        There have been a few schools drop from D1. The latest is Savannah State just two years ago. Of the others that I can think of right now, Centenary College (LA) and Oklahoma City, neither have football. After a quick search, Birmingham-Southern College was successful in NAIA then moved to NCAA D1 but after three years moved to D3. BSC started football after moving to D3.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by tsull View Post

          Idaho is winless in basketball right now one of two schools in the country to do so. Boise State would never agree to be in a basketball league, they want to get into more of a football oriented conference. Though I do like your idea about that basketball conference especially with St Mary's and others being in there from the Mountain West.

          My theory and I agree with Mark Few, is it these colleges if they're going to decide to play division one, they need to up their game. This goes for the Pac-12, too. UCLA has been horrible in football for years, USC has hired horrifically over the last 30 or 40 years with the exception of Pete Carroll. Arizona State is middling in football and basketball despite having great weather and unreal facilities. Washington is last in the Pac-12 in basketball for the second year in a row.

          I do like in the West that there are more options than just watching people play games for entertainment. That said, there's not a lot of national players in football and basketball in the West. The Pac-12 has had two teams win national titles in the last 60 years. Arizona won one title and UCLA has won two since Wooden retired. Pete Carroll won one national title at USC and no other team has won a national title since Washington 30 years ago, and that was a shared national title.

          Gonzaga has a really good chance to win a national title this year in basketball and that would help not only the WCC but also the West Coast, in my opinion. Then again, I don't know if many people in the West would take notice after a couple months. It's just how we roll here.. check the Mariners, the losingest team in all of pro sports.
          I think if the MWC hadn't lost BYU, Utah, and TCU they would have been knocking on the door to being a power conference in football. Losing Chis Pederson as a coach knocked down Boise State from the level they were at and the conference would still probably below the Pac-12, but could have been considered just knocking on the door. While not as dominating like in the MWC, Utah has been a contender in the Pac-12 South unlike Colorado. TCU has been middle tier Big-12 since the move, although BYU basketball has gone down from just before they left and the days with Jimmer Ferdette although last year they were pretty close to that level and this year a top 30 team.

          I'm afraid of one thing about the MWC though, even if they get 3 or 4 teams in the tournament it will be like those years a few years ago where they go out early. Last year's San Diego State team could have made a deep run, but we'll never know.

          I don't know if you saw it, but at the start of the basketball season ESPN had an article about what they consider a tier below Power Conferences and above mid-majors. They considered both the WCC and MWC to be in that tier along with the A-10 and American. Conferences with teams possible to make deep runs like Gonzaga, San Diego State (although we didn't see it), and Nevada in recent years tournaments and able to put multiple teams into the tourney with teams capable of reaching the Sweet 16. If that were to catch on, with two of the conferences in the West it could change perception of things in the West. This year both the WCC and MWC are looking like multiple bid leagues, but definitely have bottom feeders below UW quality. http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2021/conferencerpi while of course messed up due to less non-conference games than other years has the WCC (with multiple Power 6 wins) as the 4th highest in RPI ahead of the ACC and Pac-12, but I think the top team also boosts that conference RPI a lot..
          Last edited by Wildcat Khan; 02-18-2021, 07:11 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            [QUOTE=tsull;n564850]
            Boise State would never agree to be in a basketball league, they want to get into more of a football oriented conference. Though I do like your idea about that basketball conference especially with St Mary's and others being in there from the Mountain West.

            [\QUOTE]

            This is rather likely an incorrect statement. Before Bryan Harsin went on to Auburn, he was screaming for BSU football to leave the Mountain West for the American, as the rest of the Mountain West isn’t investing enough to raise strength of schedule ratings. The American is believed to not want the other BSU sports. So Boise State was known to be in discussions with the WCC and the Big West. The WCC is really a rather happy little family that doesn’t really want BSU (I think Gonzaga is the bigger impediment to Khan’s presented dream sequence, basically because they like the reworked TV contract the WCC agreed to after Gonzaga made their MWC noises). The Big West would want Boise State to pay for the extra travel. BSU would kill for that dream proposal Khan devised, but there’s reasons it won’t happen.

            Comment


            • #51
              [QUOTE=Pounder;n564905]
              Originally posted by tsull View Post
              Boise State would never agree to be in a basketball league, they want to get into more of a football oriented conference. Though I do like your idea about that basketball conference especially with St Mary's and others being in there from the Mountain West.

              [\QUOTE]

              This is rather likely an incorrect statement. Before Bryan Harsin went on to Auburn, he was screaming for BSU football to leave the Mountain West for the American, as the rest of the Mountain West isn’t investing enough to raise strength of schedule ratings. The American is believed to not want the other BSU sports. So Boise State was known to be in discussions with the WCC and the Big West. The WCC is really a rather happy little family that doesn’t really want BSU (I think Gonzaga is the bigger impediment to Khan’s presented dream sequence, basically because they like the reworked TV contract the WCC agreed to after Gonzaga made their MWC noises). The Big West would want Boise State to pay for the extra travel. BSU would kill for that dream proposal Khan devised, but there’s reasons it won’t happen.
              I live in Boise my statement is not incorrect. Brian Harsin was complaining because he wanted to get into a football oriented conference. The fans want to get into a bigger football oriented conference. They were talking to the WCC and Big West because they're trying to fix their football to get into a football oriented conference, they don't care where they play their other sports. The Mountain West is very good in basketball, coach Leon Rice did not want to leave for the Big West in particular because that's such a bad conference.

              They weren't big on the WCC either as they didn't really fit the profile of that league. Trust me, I live in Boise and they went to get into a bigger football conference.
              Last edited by tsull; 02-19-2021, 09:44 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

                Well said. Idaho is the only school I can think of in recent memory that has gone down and not up. ACU for example went up just a few years ago and they are already competing for their conference title with a legit chance to make the tourney. People will look at that, not Idaho and how they aren't even near the top of the Big Sky in football or basketball despite having recently been a FBS school.

                What I would love to see for basketball in the west, the non Pac-12 schools that put money into their programs in both the WCC and MWC to split and form a conference similar to the Big East. I know it won't happen of course, but we can dream of a league with BYU, SDSU, Saint Mary's, Nevada, Colorado State, Gonzaga, Utah State, and Boise State for example and possibly USF. All these schools are currently top 100 schools in basketball and could be a legit power league.
                I think there are a handful, but they are definitely the most high profile to do so. I respect it when a school realizes they are in the wrong spot and move up or down accordingly, especially down - it takes a lot of guff to admit you're wrong, you don't deserve the FBS title, and to make the appropriate accommodations. That basketball conference would be kind of interesting.

                IMO, people think of the term "Division I," and they get warm fuzzy feelings of big primetime spotlight games, consistent NFL draftees, and games against the big boys in the Power 5. That's just not how it works for most schools. Admins try to appeal to those people thinking it will bring in attention, recognition, and revenue. If people didn't care about Riverside before they went D1, they probably aren't going to care after. There are probably exceptions, but for the most part - if you can't build a following as a small fish in a small pond, good luck building one as a small fish in a big pond.

                NDSU is the model school for moving up. They had a ton of success and were very competent in multiple sports, and they had loads of fan support. They also had more than adequate facilities that they still use today, especially the Fargodome. It was a good move. Now if they'd just add a hockey team.

                Comment


                • #53
                  [QUOTE=tsull;n564916]
                  Originally posted by Pounder View Post

                  I live in Boise my statement is not incorrect. Brian Harsin was complaining because he wanted to get into a football oriented conference. The fans want to get into a bigger football oriented conference. They were talking to the WCC and Big West because they're trying to fix their football to get into a football oriented conference, they don't care where they play their other sports. The Mountain West is very good in basketball, coach Leon Rice did not want to leave for the Big West in particular because that's such a bad conference.

                  They weren't big on the WCC either as they didn't really fit the profile of that league. Trust me, I live in Boise and they went to get into a bigger football conference.
                  BTW, FWIW, I lived in Idaho for 15 years, most of it in Boise, the rest not far away. Which, eh...

                  The way you wrote that seems to say it’s an either-or. Being in the American for football AND in Khan’s basketball arrangement IS Boise’s dream scenario. Maybe I’d add to that by saying Leon Rice won’t get much of a say if Boise makes a move. At Boise, football calls the shots... as long as it doesn’t cost the school too much money. There’s the rub.

                  Which means Boise is stuck where it is.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    [QUOTE=Pounder;n564982]
                    Originally posted by tsull View Post

                    BTW, FWIW, I lived in Idaho for 15 years, most of it in Boise, the rest not far away. Which, eh...

                    The way you wrote that seems to say it’s an either-or. Being in the American for football AND in Khan’s basketball arrangement IS Boise’s dream scenario. Maybe I’d add to that by saying Leon Rice won’t get much of a say if Boise makes a move. At Boise, football calls the shots... as long as it doesn’t cost the school too much money. There’s the rub.

                    Which means Boise is stuck where it is.
                    Sounds like we're agreeing on things. Football calls the shots in Boise and that's how it will always be. It's a football school.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      [QUOTE=tsull;n564916]
                      Originally posted by Pounder View Post

                      I live in Boise my statement is not incorrect. Brian Harsin was complaining because he wanted to get into a football oriented conference. The fans want to get into a bigger football oriented conference. They were talking to the WCC and Big West because they're trying to fix their football to get into a football oriented conference, they don't care where they play their other sports. The Mountain West is very good in basketball, coach Leon Rice did not want to leave for the Big West in particular because that's such a bad conference.

                      They weren't big on the WCC either as they didn't really fit the profile of that league. Trust me, I live in Boise and they went to get into a bigger football conference.
                      I remember Boise State had officially left the MWC to join the Big East, but that was right before the Big East Basketball schools split and kept the name and the football schools became the American. The ACC poached, Bosie State stayed in the MWC and were back at square one.

                      The MWC probably could become a viable conference if programs were willing to sink the money into their football programs that Boise State has, but the same could be said for the WCC on basketball. Both have 2-3 programs that are miles ahead of the bottom of the conference and look to be mired there, unlike UW who climbed back up in football when they were a bottom feeder and will likely do so in basketball too. I don't see UNLV doing that in football (possibly basketball) in the MWC or Portland in the WCC.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        [QUOTE=Pounder;n564905]
                        Originally posted by tsull View Post
                        Boise State would never agree to be in a basketball league, they want to get into more of a football oriented conference. Though I do like your idea about that basketball conference especially with St Mary's and others being in there from the Mountain West.

                        [\QUOTE]

                        This is rather likely an incorrect statement. Before Bryan Harsin went on to Auburn, he was screaming for BSU football to leave the Mountain West for the American, as the rest of the Mountain West isn’t investing enough to raise strength of schedule ratings. The American is believed to not want the other BSU sports. So Boise State was known to be in discussions with the WCC and the Big West. The WCC is really a rather happy little family that doesn’t really want BSU (I think Gonzaga is the bigger impediment to Khan’s presented dream sequence, basically because they like the reworked TV contract the WCC agreed to after Gonzaga made their MWC noises). The Big West would want Boise State to pay for the extra travel. BSU would kill for that dream proposal Khan devised, but there’s reasons it won’t happen.
                        I remember that the MWC said they couldn't compete with what the WCC gave Gonzaga. MWC is now on CBS Sports cable channel, but WCC is also even with its other teams on both there and ESPN. The other thing is the double bye straight to the WCC semi-finals to protect their NET ranking as well as the number 2 seed (likely BYU this year) and protect the seed line. Neither of those the MWC were able to provide.

                        The dream football scenario may be the top MWC and American conference schools, but again that is in a dream world and not likely to occur. You could imagine the top 3-4 teams as top 25 teams and giving such a conference some respect, especially if they still scheduled out of conference like they currently do.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                          Yeah. IMO, the NCAA needs to stop leaving schools to their own devices to determine attendance figures. They need a standardized system for collecting data that's reported directly to the NCAA for verification. If the numbers are tampered with or fudged, the program suffers harsh penalties.

                          It's clear that the current requirement is not taken seriously by anyone involved. Schools are stretching the numbers anyway they can just to stay FBS. There is no way the MAC meets the current requirements, but they are somehow allowed to stay.

                          I also like the idea of minimum facility requirements. If a school can't provide baseline facility infrastructure, they should be relegated to the proper division.

                          What bugs me about D1, and basketball specifically - is that the top 10 D2 teams would clean house with the bottom 25%-33% on a consistent basis. There will always be some amount of overlap (NDSU in football, for example) - but when your top D2 teams can run the show against a good portion of the D1 pool - it's time to rethink who goes where.
                          I don't think attendance should have anything to do with what division you are in, but if you want accurate attendance figures for football, all the NCAA would have to do is say, "Starting in 2022, member institutions will put a $1 surcharge on each ticket sold / seat occupied that will be used to fund the playoffs."

                          I don't care about accuracy so much, but I do want the FCS to avoid having a regional playoff system and expand the number of seeds. Way back when, D2 used to seed every team in the playoff - and it made the playoffs a lot more interesting.


                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by tony View Post

                            I don't think attendance should have anything to do with what division you are in, but if you want accurate attendance figures for football, all the NCAA would have to do is say, "Starting in 2022, member institutions will put a $1 surcharge on each ticket sold / seat occupied that will be used to fund the playoffs."

                            I don't care about accuracy so much, but I do want the FCS to avoid having a regional playoff system and expand the number of seeds. Way back when, D2 used to seed every team in the playoff - and it made the playoffs a lot more interesting.

                            Actually, that's how it already works. The rule is each FBS team must meet a 15,000 per-game average, once in a two year rolling period. Here's why we need "accuracy" in the reporting:

                            InfoCision Field holds 30,000 fans. This season closer where Ohio visited Akron in 2019 had an attendance of 21,414. Conveniently, they finished the 2019 season with a 17,959 average. That's down from the year prior, 18,515.



                            It's just one example from one random MAC team - but my point is, schools are getting away with cooking the books on attendance to keep their FBS status. I was thinking more along the lines of a standardized ticket distribution/scanning process each FBS school must implement, but a surcharge would work too. The NCAA would raise an extra $40 million a year, for whatever that's worth.

                            Using/enforcing attendance as a metric would help rid the FBS of the bottom feeders, and it would make it harder for them to stick around since it's largely out of their control. Want more people to come to the games? Either A) Play better, or B) Market better. No more "getting by" with some AD intern mailing in the wrong numbers...

                            Obviously, it shouldn't be the only metric under consideration - but it should have some weight. Gotta trim the fat in the so-called "elite division" somehow.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              There was a game last year where Akron had two people on one side of the stadium. I saw the picture. Akron reported 10,000 at the game or something like that, the Akron fans online said there was about 500 people at the game. As long as the NCAA doesn't do anything about it teams will just continue to do this.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by tsull View Post
                                There was a game last year where Akron had two people on one side of the stadium. I saw the picture. Akron reported 10,000 at the game or something like that, the Akron fans online said there was about 500 people at the game. As long as the NCAA doesn't do anything about it teams will just continue to do this.
                                It's convenient how they finished just slightly higher than the minimum requirement. I think this problem plagues the MAC and other small conferences that really should be in the FCS.

                                Interestingly enough, a handful of schools didn't meet the requirement in 2019. The NCAA just doesn't care enough to do anything about it.

                                Ball State, Central Michigan, Charlotte, FIU, UMass, Middle Tennessee, and Northern Illinois all reported below 15,000 in 2019. There are also a ton of schools that reported in the 15,000-18,000 range, with Coastal Carolina standing out at 15,019 (though I might actually believe that one).

                                Here is the interesting bit - Northern Illinois' stated attendance would rank them fifth in Division II behind Morehouse, GVSU, Tarleton, and Tuskegee. Ball State would rank second, and UMass would rank third if either one of those teams were in D2. Also, if NIU were DIII - they'd be #1, but only by 1569 fans/game over Hampden-Sydney. Those seven teams would also rank anywhere between #13 and #28-ish in the FCS.

                                Lastly, the rule is that they must his 15,000 once in a rolling two-year period. Of those seven teams, FIU and Middle Tennessee are the only two to report above 15,000 in 2018. Even more bizarre, most of the other five had a drop in attendance between 2018 and 2019. By rule, five of those teams should be relegated based on stated attendance - which the NCAA is refusing to do.

                                Again, that's all based on stated attendance - which I don't buy for the MAC and CUSA schools, and I can see a handful of Mountain West and Sun Belt teams struggling too. Aside from UMass and possibly UConn, the Independents seem to be doing fine though.

                                Comment

                                Ad3

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X