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  • #76
    Originally posted by tsull View Post
    *snip*
    The discussion veered off a bit - I was just talking about sports in general, and FBS attendance. None of that was intended for D2.

    I certainly get your point - and you are right, I don't think we should be competing with FBS on anything, and especially attendance. That being said, I don't like going to D2 games with a high school atmosphere. I doubt the players do either. The key is to provide a "college football" atmosphere to a small crowd. Part of the solution is to find the scalable aspects of the FBS experience and retrofit them to work for D2. That's why we're seeing a lot of D2 schools building stadiums with things like box seating, video boards, and fan amenities. We don't need flyovers, elaborate halftime shows, fireworks, or complex ticket packages. Another part of the solution is to not think "too big" and find ways to keep the community aspect in focus as well. Don't nickel and dime fans, don't make the ticket buying process complicated (a booth at the gate works just fine), let the kids in free - that stuff goes a long way too.

    The tl;dr - D2 football isn't FBS, but it's also not high school. Take elements from both to create a unique atmosphere. Then the fans will come. It's not an overnight process, start small, build on it, and eventually it should work.

    Your comment about parking is interesting. We charge a small amount for one of our lots, and the rest are free. It seems to work for us. It's the popular tailgating lot, and we provide trash/porta-loos, so they are getting something for their money. What bugs me is going to a game where there is one lot, you have to park there, and they charge like $10 just to get into the parking lot. That's a little excessive. Charge if you'd like for premium parking, but provide some sort of free alternative. At this level, it might drive fans away.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

      The discussion veered off a bit - I was just talking about sports in general, and FBS attendance. None of that was intended for D2.

      I certainly get your point - and you are right, I don't think we should be competing with FBS on anything, and especially attendance. That being said, I don't like going to D2 games with a high school atmosphere. I doubt the players do either. The key is to provide a "college football" atmosphere to a small crowd. Part of the solution is to find the scalable aspects of the FBS experience and retrofit them to work for D2. That's why we're seeing a lot of D2 schools building stadiums with things like box seating, video boards, and fan amenities. We don't need flyovers, elaborate halftime shows, fireworks, or complex ticket packages. Another part of the solution is to not think "too big" and find ways to keep the community aspect in focus as well. Don't nickel and dime fans, don't make the ticket buying process complicated (a booth at the gate works just fine), let the kids in free - that stuff goes a long way too.

      The tl;dr - D2 football isn't FBS, but it's also not high school. Take elements from both to create a unique atmosphere. Then the fans will come. It's not an overnight process, start small, build on it, and eventually it should work.

      Your comment about parking is interesting. We charge a small amount for one of our lots, and the rest are free. It seems to work for us. It's the popular tailgating lot, and we provide trash/porta-loos, so they are getting something for their money. What bugs me is going to a game where there is one lot, you have to park there, and they charge like $10 just to get into the parking lot. That's a little excessive. Charge if you'd like for premium parking, but provide some sort of free alternative. At this level, it might drive fans away.
      I would agree with this, an example is Northern State's impressive new football stadium. Yes, don't be high school, but make it family friendly for pricing. WOU has a nice tailgating setup where one purchases the tailgating spot. I'm for that. I'm for having big marching bands (see CWU, probably tough to find a better one in D2), and doing something to attract local fans. I just don't see the average fan breaking the bank to watch D2.

      One thing the media could do is act like D2/D3/NAIA is actually a viable sport. They'll hype high school when 99% of the players aren't good enough to play any level of college ball.

      I think half the Big Sky is a complete joke, and most schools -- even the good ones like EWU -- are hemorrhaging money because they keep up with the facilities arms race and 6-figure salaries needed to compete in D1. When EWU went up I knew it would be a struggle outside the W's and L's. They have a high school type football stadium, a middling hoops arena, bad facilities, dinky town, not much Spokane engagement. The state of Washington has great prep football and hoops, that's why they can win. Outside of that, they can't play the FCS game well. Portland State -- 2nd to the last in Big Sky hoops right now -- is a joke athletically and in interest. Sac State is worse, a 1,300-seat gym ... most high schools are bigger.

      Dreams of CWU and even SFU going D1 is funny, save it for April Fool's Day.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by tsull View Post

        I would agree with this, an example is Northern State's impressive new football stadium. Yes, don't be high school, but make it family friendly for pricing. WOU has a nice tailgating setup where one purchases the tailgating spot. I'm for that. I'm for having big marching bands (see CWU, probably tough to find a better one in D2), and doing something to attract local fans. I just don't see the average fan breaking the bank to watch D2.

        One thing the media could do is act like D2/D3/NAIA is actually a viable sport. They'll hype high school when 99% of the players aren't good enough to play any level of college ball.

        I think half the Big Sky is a complete joke, and most schools -- even the good ones like EWU -- are hemorrhaging money because they keep up with the facilities arms race and 6-figure salaries needed to compete in D1. When EWU went up I knew it would be a struggle outside the W's and L's. They have a high school type football stadium, a middling hoops arena, bad facilities, dinky town, not much Spokane engagement. The state of Washington has great prep football and hoops, that's why they can win. Outside of that, they can't play the FCS game well. Portland State -- 2nd to the last in Big Sky hoops right now -- is a joke athletically and in interest. Sac State is worse, a 1,300-seat gym ... most high schools are bigger.

        Dreams of CWU and even SFU going D1 is funny, save it for April Fool's Day.
        Absolutely - we shouldn't be charging an arm and a leg for admission. We aren't profiting from it anyway. I'm fine if schools want to get creative with group plans or ticket packages/promotions, but it needs to be simple. No fees charged at the gate, either - just the sticker price for a ticket. We let fans bring chairs and blankets in to sit on the berm - it works great if a family needs to spread out a bit and the weather is nice. That type of stuff is neat, and pretty unique to D2. I've also seen it act as overflow for big games when the bleachers get full. Keep the concessions affordable - make it so a family of five can feed everyone for the same cost as a trip to McDonald's, and you'll have people coming back.

        I don't know how box pricing works, but that's where you can charge a bit more depending on what's being offered. That doesn't really affect the average fan, so have at it.

        It's definitely possible to keep it family-affordable while still providing atmosphere. I'm excited because some of the technology to do that is getting cheaper and more accessible. Northern is a great example. They are going to build a beautiful new stadium that's easier to access for people - it's going to have amenities and technology, but they are still going to keep the prices reasonable for people who want to come. Their entire AD is very community-driven. They may not have the best football team, but people show up to watch. What they have might be overkill for a lot of schools, but I think each school can try a few things and adopt something that works for them.

        You mentioned it already, but what grinds my gears is when schools sit back and complain that nobody wants to come - whether that be football attendance or enrollment. Yet they don't try anything and scoff when it should be suggested that they do. Doing nothing will always lead to nothing.



        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by tsull View Post

          I would agree with this, an example is Northern State's impressive new football stadium. Yes, don't be high school, but make it family friendly for pricing. WOU has a nice tailgating setup where one purchases the tailgating spot. I'm for that. I'm for having big marching bands (see CWU, probably tough to find a better one in D2), and doing something to attract local fans. I just don't see the average fan breaking the bank to watch D2.

          One thing the media could do is act like D2/D3/NAIA is actually a viable sport. They'll hype high school when 99% of the players aren't good enough to play any level of college ball.

          I think half the Big Sky is a complete joke, and most schools -- even the good ones like EWU -- are hemorrhaging money because they keep up with the facilities arms race and 6-figure salaries needed to compete in D1. When EWU went up I knew it would be a struggle outside the W's and L's. They have a high school type football stadium, a middling hoops arena, bad facilities, dinky town, not much Spokane engagement. The state of Washington has great prep football and hoops, that's why they can win. Outside of that, they can't play the FCS game well. Portland State -- 2nd to the last in Big Sky hoops right now -- is a joke athletically and in interest. Sac State is worse, a 1,300-seat gym ... most high schools are bigger.

          Dreams of CWU and even SFU going D1 is funny, save it for April Fool's Day.
          There is one sport I think SFU could probably do at the D1 level much like several NSIC schools, hockey. It was neat that CBS Sports had St Cloud State versus UM Duluth on their sports channel as two top 10 teams. I also think with Canadian's knowledge of hockey if they hosted UND for example there would be a lot of fans that would go see it with all the NHL players they turn out.

          As D2 doesn't have hockey, I'd rather see SFU D1 than D3.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by tsull View Post

            I would agree with this, an example is Northern State's impressive new football stadium. Yes, don't be high school, but make it family friendly for pricing. WOU has a nice tailgating setup where one purchases the tailgating spot. I'm for that. I'm for having big marching bands (see CWU, probably tough to find a better one in D2), and doing something to attract local fans. I just don't see the average fan breaking the bank to watch D2.

            One thing the media could do is act like D2/D3/NAIA is actually a viable sport. They'll hype high school when 99% of the players aren't good enough to play any level of college ball.

            I think half the Big Sky is a complete joke, and most schools -- even the good ones like EWU -- are hemorrhaging money because they keep up with the facilities arms race and 6-figure salaries needed to compete in D1. When EWU went up I knew it would be a struggle outside the W's and L's. They have a high school type football stadium, a middling hoops arena, bad facilities, dinky town, not much Spokane engagement. The state of Washington has great prep football and hoops, that's why they can win. Outside of that, they can't play the FCS game well. Portland State -- 2nd to the last in Big Sky hoops right now -- is a joke athletically and in interest. Sac State is worse, a 1,300-seat gym ... most high schools are bigger.

            Dreams of CWU and even SFU going D1 is funny, save it for April Fool's Day.
            Speaking of WOU, I see that Williams got a deal with the Lions after his stint with the Raiders. That right there is something that WOU could use for marketing.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

              Speaking of WOU, I see that Williams got a deal with the Lions after his stint with the Raiders. That right there is something that WOU could use for marketing.
              That's what I've been hoping for for SMSU for quite some time - we need to get a guy to the show for that very reason.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

                Speaking of WOU, I see that Williams got a deal with the Lions after his stint with the Raiders. That right there is something that WOU could use for marketing.
                They promote Tyrell really well at WOU. He's on their website and every summer he runs a free football camp for youth at WOU, which I think is cool. Great guy. The Raiders thing didn't work out, injuries the last couple years, hopefully this new start will get him back on the field.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

                  There is one sport I think SFU could probably do at the D1 level much like several NSIC schools, hockey. It was neat that CBS Sports had St Cloud State versus UM Duluth on their sports channel as two top 10 teams. I also think with Canadian's knowledge of hockey if they hosted UND for example there would be a lot of fans that would go see it with all the NHL players they turn out.

                  As D2 doesn't have hockey, I'd rather see SFU D1 than D3.
                  Curiously, they already have:

                  Simpson scores twice in third period to lift UND - University of North Dakota Athletics (fightinghawks.com)


                  IMO, the NCAA needs to govern hockey separately as it's a regional sport. They closed a big door by not allowing any more D2/D3 teams to field a D1 hockey program. SFU would benefit most by staying D2 for all other sports, and having D1 hockey. There are a bunch of D2 schools that would have interest in NCAA hockey, but can't field a D2/D3 team. The ACHA has really stepped in to become the varsity outlet for some of these schools.

                  The one concern I have for SFU is how isolated they are. Huntsville barely saved theirs, multiple times. Anchorage is still awaiting a verdict. There is obviously Fairbanks, ASU, Denver, and Colorado College as well I suppose.

                  It would be cool if they could wrangle UBC into the NCAA with them. That would be a successful partnership.


                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                    Curiously, they already have:

                    Simpson scores twice in third period to lift UND - University of North Dakota Athletics (fightinghawks.com)


                    IMO, the NCAA needs to govern hockey separately as it's a regional sport. They closed a big door by not allowing any more D2/D3 teams to field a D1 hockey program. SFU would benefit most by staying D2 for all other sports, and having D1 hockey. There are a bunch of D2 schools that would have interest in NCAA hockey, but can't field a D2/D3 team. The ACHA has really stepped in to become the varsity outlet for some of these schools.

                    The one concern I have for SFU is how isolated they are. Huntsville barely saved theirs, multiple times. Anchorage is still awaiting a verdict. There is obviously Fairbanks, ASU, Denver, and Colorado College as well I suppose.

                    It would be cool if they could wrangle UBC into the NCAA with them. That would be a successful partnership.

                    Agree, NCAA hockey should be D-1 and D-2, that's it and anyone can apply for either division. The NCAA again likes their Frozen 4 money. There's too much quibbling about alphabet soup -- can't play this school because they're D3 or we won't allow D2 in. Like in football, I remember CWU going to Montana when the Griz were great in football and losing on a last-second FG. CWU wasn't rewarded for that effort, but would've been rewarded for pounding the crap out of a bad D2 school. The whole thing is a mess: You can't play against NAIA schools! Why not? D-1 hoop teams do all the time.

                    And because of all this in-fighting, small college football is dying a fast death on the west coast. Seriously, we were way better off in the days of the Columbia Football Association. What a freaking mess.

                    Oh, for SFU -- never going D-1 in anything but hockey. As in NEVER.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by tsull View Post

                      Agree, NCAA hockey should be D-1 and D-2, that's it and anyone can apply for either division. The NCAA again likes their Frozen 4 money. There's too much quibbling about alphabet soup -- can't play this school because they're D3 or we won't allow D2 in. Like in football, I remember CWU going to Montana when the Griz were great in football and losing on a last-second FG. CWU wasn't rewarded for that effort, but would've been rewarded for pounding the crap out of a bad D2 school. The whole thing is a mess: You can't play against NAIA schools! Why not? D-1 hoop teams do all the time.

                      And because of all this in-fighting, small college football is dying a fast death on the west coast. Seriously, we were way better off in the days of the Columbia Football Association. What a freaking mess.

                      Oh, for SFU -- never going D-1 in anything but hockey. As in NEVER.
                      Agreed - there are 20 non-D1 schools playing D1 (men's) hockey. Many of them are fairly competitive. Duluth has won 3 titles since 2011, Union won in 2014, and Mankato was the favorite before the cancellation last year. Small schools can compete in this sport at this level, and some are quite dominant.

                      Under the old rules, D2 teams were also permitted to have a D3 hockey team. Minnesota-Crookston did up until 2009. They couldn't offer scholarships, but it was a way for them to compete at some level of varsity hockey. Had that rule held out for just a few more years, SMSU might have had it's own DIII hockey team too. We joined the ACHA - which is a great organization, but it's just not the same.

                      Curiously - Stonehill added a women's D1 team, so there must be some backdoor. But yeah, SFU will have to take on a heavy financial burden to shift everything to D1 just for hockey and I don't see it being worth it.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Maybe the solution for the GNAC is to tap into the USports teams in BC... This is UBC's proposed football stadium. Some of these teams do draw crowds comparable to DII teams, if not better. Might as well let them join the club...

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post
                          Maybe the solution for the GNAC is to tap into the USports teams in BC... This is UBC's proposed football stadium. Some of these teams do draw crowds comparable to DII teams, if not better. Might as well let them join the club...

                          SFU and UBC kept their rivalry game going for a couple years after SFU moved. One of those had the greatest moment in D2 broadcast history, when a drunk guy wandered into the booth of the guys calling the game and proceeded to have a nice chat with them.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by IronOre View Post

                            SFU and UBC kept their rivalry game going for a couple years after SFU moved. One of those had the greatest moment in D2 broadcast history, when a drunk guy wandered into the booth of the guys calling the game and proceeded to have a nice chat with them.
                            That's a nice stadium. Single Malt has a lot of information on this being a B.C. football coach. But yes, I'd love to play UBC in conference or non-conference play. I think they avoid NCAA ball, however. As noted before, Vancouver is my favorite West Coast city, so it would be great to have two teams from up there. Wishful thinking, but they'd be a great addition ... excellent academic school, too.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by IronOre View Post

                              SFU and UBC kept their rivalry game going for a couple years after SFU moved. One of those had the greatest moment in D2 broadcast history, when a drunk guy wandered into the booth of the guys calling the game and proceeded to have a nice chat with them.
                              Haha, gotta love those Canadians. Especially the football fans.

                              Didn't realize college football had quite the following that it did up north. Interesting how they can make it work with few teams across large distances, but the GNAC struggles.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                                Haha, gotta love those Canadians. Especially the football fans.

                                Didn't realize college football had quite the following that it did up north. Interesting how they can make it work with few teams across large distances, but the GNAC struggles.
                                Well, there's the thing. When SFU was in the Canadian league, they probably traveled further than they do now. That division covers half the continent.



                                So they have the same problem we do in D2 football out west.

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