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  • #46
    Interest in D2 and D3 sports in general is very, very small. Attendance is mostly parents and a small percentage of alumni. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

    What is interesting is that the students are the ones funding these programs, but they aren’t at the games. The students are underwriting an entertainment program for the elderly.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Herb Street View Post
      Interest in D2 and D3 sports in general is very, very small. Attendance is mostly parents and a small percentage of alumni. There are a few exceptions, but not many.

      What is interesting is that the students are the ones funding these programs, but they aren’t at the games. The students are underwriting an entertainment program for the elderly.
      You could say the same for most FCS programs, and at a much higher burden on students.
      Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and drink whatever comes out?"

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by JavsFan View Post

        You could say the same for most FCS programs, and at a much higher burden on students.
        I wouldn't say the same thing about FCS at all. D1 - even the lowest level - is a completely different animal to D2, even at the highest level. There are a number of reasons for this.

        D1, even at its lowest level, has a commercial value to media and sponsors that is a high multiple of anything in D2.

        The average viewership of a first round NCAA tournament basketball game is over 2 million. Viewership of the D2 basketball championship was so low that it wasn't even reported. It was likely less than 200,000 nationwide. The cable networks only carry certain D2 championships because it is part of the NCAA's agreement with them. There is virtually no commercial value in D2 sports.

        That's not to say there isn't a lot to like about small college sports. But Dollar General will never be confused with Nordstrom.
        Last edited by Herb Street; 02-01-2023, 10:35 AM.

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        • #49
          Those are good comments, but the question is - IF WT (post Wendler and McBroom of course) were to move to D1 would attendance pick up that much for basketball? I am pretty sure it would NOT for football because watching McNeese State, ACU, Commerce, Tarleton, and New Mexico State did not previously result in large crowds.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Herb Street View Post

            I wouldn't say the same thing about FCS at all. D1 - even the lowest level - is a completely different animal to D2, even at the highest level. There are a number of reasons for this.

            D1, even at its lowest level, has a commercial value to media and sponsors that is a high multiple of anything in D2.

            The average viewership of a first round NCAA tournament basketball game is over 2 million. Viewership of the D2 basketball championship was so low that it wasn't even reported. It was likely less than 200,000 nationwide. The cable networks only carry certain D2 championships because it is part of the NCAA's agreement with them. There is virtually no commercial value in D2 sports.

            That's not to say there isn't a lot to like about small college sports. But Dollar General will never be confused with Nordstrom.

            Then why do students have to subsidize the programs so much?

            Even a successful FCS program, Sam Houston, funds its athletics program mainly by student athletic fees.

            They have budgeted revenues for FY23 of $13,494,160

            Ticket Sales - $730,000 for all sports
            Game guarantees - $959,500
            NCAA Allocation - $925,000
            Advertising - $500,000
            Licensing - $285,000
            Concessions, Rent and Parking - $170,000
            Student Fees (minus waivers) - $9,924,660 (10,071,190 before waivers) - that's 75% of the budgeted revenues for the program.

            and the budgeted expenses are $18,259,494, nearly a $5,000,000 deficit.


            It will be interesting to see what the numbers going forward in the FBS
            Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and drink whatever comes out?"

            Comment


            • #51
              and despite winning the NC in the spring of 2021, they averaged 7,283 and 7,611 the last two years.
              Who was the first person to look at a cow and say, "I think I'll squeeze these dangly things here, and drink whatever comes out?"

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by WT_TKW View Post
                Those are good comments, but the question is - IF WT (post Wendler and McBroom of course) were to move to D1 would attendance pick up that much for basketball? I am pretty sure it would NOT for football because watching McNeese State, ACU, Commerce, Tarleton, and New Mexico State did not previously result in large crowds.
                Attendance is only part of the metric for D1. Media and corporate dollars are another.

                But just playing the attendance game for a moment. Wind the calendar back to fall 1985. WT had 2300 season ticket holders at an average of $90 per season ticket for men's basketball. $207,000 for season tickets. And that was just for men's games, as the women played at their own venue and at their own schedule. One year later, in 1986, WT began Division 2. They cut the season ticket price almost in half, to around 50 bucks, and their season ticket holders dropped down to 1,100. In one year. So their season ticket revenues went from $207,000 to $55,000. That was almost 40 years ago. Adjust those dollars to today's dollars - multiply them by 3 or 4, and you can see what a difference in ticket revenue there is between the two divisions. Heck, I would bet that WT is still at 50 bucks for a season ticket today.

                The difference in ticket revenue is MASSIVE. And of course, that is completely ignoring corporate dollars and media money, as well as the hugely increased exposure that a university gets at the D1 level, even if they suck.


                D1 is an advertising initiative as much as it is an athletic one. A university with 10,000 students at $20,000 per student, is a $200 million annual enterprise. If they are spending 5 to 10 percent on "advertising" through D1 sports, that's about in line with corporate America.

                WT has never figured this out. They see athletics as purely an expense and nothing else. I suspect the AD doesn't see it this way, but the folks running the school do. Poor business people.
                Last edited by Herb Street; 02-01-2023, 04:42 PM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Herb Street View Post

                  Attendance is only part of the metric for D1. Media and corporate dollars are another.

                  But just playing the attendance game for a moment. Wind the calendar back to fall 1985. WT had 2300 season ticket holders at an average of $90 per season ticket for men's basketball. $207,000 for season tickets. And that was just for men's games, as the women played at their own venue and at their own schedule. One year later, in 1986, WT began Division 2. They cut the season ticket price almost in half, to around 50 bucks, and their season ticket holders dropped down to 1,100. In one year. So their season ticket revenues went from $207,000 to $55,000. That was almost 40 years ago. Adjust those dollars to today's dollars - multiply them by 3 or 4, and you can see what a difference in ticket revenue there is between the two divisions. Heck, I would bet that WT is still at 50 bucks for a season ticket today.

                  The difference in ticket revenue is MASSIVE. And of course, that is completely ignoring corporate dollars and media money, as well as the hugely increased exposure that a university gets at the D1 level, even if they suck.


                  D1 is an advertising initiative as much as it is an athletic one. A university with 10,000 students at $20,000 per student, is a $200 million annual enterprise. If they are spending 5 to 10 percent on "advertising" through D1 sports, that's about in line with corporate America.

                  WT has never figured this out. They see athletics as purely an expense and nothing else. I suspect the AD doesn't see it this way, but the folks running the school do. Poor business people.
                  Agree 100%.

                  D1 attendance will be in and out depending on the success of the teams.

                  The advertising and Amarillo market is there and was a proven attendance generator during WT's football peak from 2005-2013.

                  WT also has a great venue to host basketball and volleyball games compared to most of the Southland.

                  Both basketball teams, volleyball, and softball teams for sure would be setup for immediate success in the Southland and automatic qualifiers in the NCAA playoffs in a few years.

                  Texas A&M Commerce men's basketball team is 6-3 right now in the Southland tied for second place if you need proof of the weakness of the Southland conference.

                  As stated numerous times until Wendler gives up his Jerry Jones grip of the program either through retirement or deceased the chances are higher that they go D3 than D1.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Buffalo/Islander Alum View Post

                    Agree 100%.

                    D1 attendance will be in and out depending on the success of the teams.

                    The advertising and Amarillo market is there and was a proven attendance generator during WT's football peak from 2005-2013.

                    WT also has a great venue to host basketball and volleyball games compared to most of the Southland.

                    Both basketball teams, volleyball, and softball teams for sure would be setup for immediate success in the Southland and automatic qualifiers in the NCAA playoffs in a few years.

                    Texas A&M Commerce men's basketball team is 6-3 right now in the Southland tied for second place if you need proof of the weakness of the Southland conference.

                    As stated numerous times until Wendler gives up his Jerry Jones grip of the program either through retirement or deceased the chances are higher that they go D3 than D1.
                    They aren’t going D1, probably ever. Such a move would require a whole lot of people to give up a drum that they’ve beaten for 4 decades. Underachievement and “there no way we could ever do that” are baked into the culture at WT, and probably the region at large . I think the WT AD could guide them to be very successful at D1, but he is at the mercy of simpletons.

                    The best option is to accept WT as it is and will be, while supporting your nearest D1 program that thinks a bit bigger. I am no Tech fan, but this school was once a peer to WT and in the same conference. Obviously they thought a bit bigger over the last 60 years.

                    Leadership matters.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Let's get a bigger stick so we can beat this topic to death.

                      BuffaloChip and I are on different sides on this one. Chip wants to go D1 - I like where we are.

                      You can be a small fish in a big pond or a big fish in a small pond.

                      The Great White Buffalo has Returned

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by LSC Fan View Post
                        How is the WTAM Bowling team looking this year? Have you fired their coach yet?
                        FIY - the Wt bowling team is a 7 time National Champion.

                        The Coach is a member of the Southwest Regional PBA Hall of fame.
                        The Great White Buffalo has Returned

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Big Weekend for Wt Basketball

                          ASU needs to Sweep LCU and Wt to show they are the real deal (WBB)
                          On the men's side, ASU is leading at 14-1 followed by Wt at 12-2 and LCU with 10-4

                          BIG weekend as ASU plays Wt & LCU
                          The Great White Buffalo has Returned

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Herb Street View Post

                            They aren’t going D1, probably ever. Such a move would require a whole lot of people to give up a drum that they’ve beaten for 4 decades. Underachievement and “there no way we could ever do that” are baked into the culture at WT, and probably the region at large . I think the WT AD could guide them to be very successful at D1, but he is at the mercy of simpletons.

                            The best option is to accept WT as it is and will be, while supporting your nearest D1 program that thinks a bit bigger. I am no Tech fan, but this school was once a peer to WT and in the same conference. Obviously they thought a bit bigger over the last 60 years.

                            Leadership matters.
                            I agree with you on leadership. I think the all time low is Wendler though. Telling kids to go somewhere else isn't my idea of recruiting.

                            Maybe you haven't noticed the football team hasn't been that great since the year Carthel left. That's on the AD. Without the games against OPSU, McMurry, North American, and the other weak NAIA teams, we surely would have been under ,500 during those bleak years. We have a safe but likely not great, hire in Lynn, so it will be better. We'll see if he can get more than 8 wins.

                            Football is the flagship program at WT and has been treated more like the anus by McBroom.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Zam Roberts (#11) is no longer listed on the WT roster. She was a starter and a good point guard. Does anyone know why she is no longer on the Team?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Great White Buffalo View Post
                                Big Weekend for Wt Basketball

                                ASU needs to Sweep LCU and Wt to show they are the real deal (WBB)
                                On the men's side, ASU is leading at 14-1 followed by Wt at 12-2 and LCU with 10-4

                                BIG weekend as ASU plays Wt & LCU
                                ASU women just ended LCU's 112 game home win streak 60-57.

                                Comment

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