Should Jamestown be accepted into the NSIC?

[Mandan]

Right. It was about them having no conference and no home. Until the NSIC took them in 🙂

And yes…I get that’s the same situation as the NCC schools. But let’s please not go down the road of comparing the situations again. Haha

They announced they were moving to D2 BEFORE the GPAC kicked them out. They could still be NAIA if they really wanted to. If not the GPAC, in the Frontier East division with the NAIA Dakota schools. In fact, if they had stayed in the North Star (which was better for them travel-wise), maybe that conference still exists. A lot of their "misfortune" is of their own making.

[Purple Mav Man]

They announced they were moving to D2 BEFORE the GPAC kicked them out. They could still be NAIA if they really wanted to. If not the GPAC, in the Frontier East division with the NAIA Dakota schools. In fact, if they had stayed in the North Star (which was better for them travel-wise), maybe that conference still exists. A lot of their "misfortune" is of their own making.

That’s correct. And what conference were they in/affiliated with when they announced their move to D2? None. So I 100% agree they’ve put themselves in their own spot.

We’ll see how things go for them. Football will be a disaster. If NSIC volleyball is as strong as many say it is (and I agree) then they’ll have a hard time competing in that as well. And many say that’s their bread & butter sport. Men’s basketball has the best chance of any to be competitive. Women’s basketball will likely be at or near the bottom. Perhaps they’ll experience growth in students somehow?

[SW_Mustang]

That’s correct. And what conference were they in/affiliated with when they announced their move to D2? None. So I 100% agree they’ve put themselves in their own spot.

We’ll see how things go for them. Football will be a disaster. If NSIC volleyball is as strong as many say it is (and I agree) then they’ll have a hard time competing in that as well. And many say that’s their bread & butter sport. Men’s basketball has the best chance of any to be competitive. Women’s basketball will likely be at or near the bottom. Perhaps they’ll experience growth in students somehow?

I guess they could continue to put 150 kids on the football roster - but it's my belief that cutting JV sports will lead to a decrease in students. It's probably trivial and would get lost in the annual enrollment fluctuations but that's just my take.

I know it's a sin 'round here to suggest that a small town in North Dakota isn't a hot spot for today's hip youth, but it isn't objectively - and taking away opportunities for prospective students (no matter how insignificant those opportunities are) is not a great way to attract... more students.

[Purple Mav Man]

I guess they could continue to put 150 kids on the football roster - but it's my belief that cutting JV sports will lead to a decrease in students. It's probably trivial and would get lost in the annual enrollment fluctuations but that's just my take.

I know it's a sin 'round here to suggest that a small town in North Dakota isn't a hot spot for today's hip youth, but it isn't objectively - and taking away opportunities for prospective students (no matter how insignificant those opportunities are) is not a great way to attract... more students.

Agree. I think many of us don’t see how the ‘every student is on a sports team’ model is sustainable.

[Matt Witwicki]

They announced they were moving to D2 BEFORE the GPAC kicked them out. They could still be NAIA if they really wanted to. If not the GPAC, in the Frontier East division with the NAIA Dakota schools. In fact, if they had stayed in the North Star (which was better for them travel-wise), maybe that conference still exists. A lot of their "misfortune" is of their own making.

I can't agree with this.

The North Star was falling apart and a league where teams had to play each other twice and all that fun of a tiny league. It was only a matter of time before that league had to fold. UJ was also a geographic outpost in the GPAC..so they were in a bad spot in terms of having a conference home that would work long term. When UJ got the ball rolling for D2, the Frontier East wasn't a thing..and that isn't a good thing for the NStar teams anyway with the wild travels they'll have out west.

[SW_Mustang]

Agree. I think many of us don’t see how the ‘every student is on a sports team’ model is sustainable.

I'm preaching to the choir here, but teams that do these kinds of things aren't ever going to be serious competitors. I mean... it's what happened at SMSU. We were already on the downward slide, but that 2021 season cut off any chance we had of being competitive for the next decade plus.

If this is a real long-term strategy for Jamestown, they're banking on the freshman tuition dollars of the 8th stringers. The "golden eggs" are the ones who fall in love with the campus enough (or are "stuck" there) and don't leave after year 1. Those kids get a gold star if they give up their roster spot as sophomores to the next sucker. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit!

At least with JV - it cost less per-student to run those programs and there was no expectations of outcome. But they gladly showed those 60+ kids to the door when they joined D2.

[Stanger86]

I know it's a sin 'round here to suggest that a small town in North Dakota isn't a hot spot for today's hip youth, but it isn't objectively - and taking away opportunities for prospective students (no matter how insignificant those opportunities are) is not a great way to attract... more students.

Of course it's not a sin....all I've argued is that it really isn't all that different than the situation for small towns in South Dakota, small towns in Minnesota, small towns in Iowa, or small towns in Nebraska. Now continue that outside of the NSIC footprint, and you have similar situations at probably over half of Division II as a whole. Most Division II institutions are not in metropolises.

[SW_Mustang]

Of course it's not a sin....all I've argued is that it really isn't all that different than the situation for small towns in South Dakota, small towns in Minnesota, small towns in Iowa, or small towns in Nebraska. Now continue that outside of the NSIC footprint, and you have similar situations at probably over half of Division II as a whole. Most Division II institutions are not in metropolises.

My comment wasn't in response to anything you said - but once the back end of this 150-person roster drops off, they'll no longer be DII athletes. Then the playing field becomes even - are 19 year olds that aren't playing football anymore going to want to stay in a small town paying private school tuition? A few, maybe - but the rest probably won't.

Though - Jamestown is very much on the smaller end of the NSIC too. If we shoehorn MSUM onto Fargo, then there are five towns at or less than the ~15,000 mark. IMO - things really begin to urbanize around the ~50,000 mark, so it doesn't take a New York City or even a Minneapolis to start catching the attention of college kids.

[Stanger86]

Though - Jamestown is very much on the smaller end of the NSIC too. If we shoehorn MSUM onto Fargo, then there are five towns at or less than the ~15,000 mark. IMO - things really begin to urbanize around the ~50,000 mark, so it doesn't take a New York City or even a Minneapolis to start catching the attention of college kids.

Correct, it's small for the NSIC. But the NSIC isn't necessarily representative of Division II as a whole, just like the MVFC isn't necessarily representative of FCS as a whole. Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

I get that it would be great to have perfect fits across the board in all sports in order to deem someone worthy of the NSIC....but if that's the case what we're really talking about is the former NCC teams. Schools like Northern, Wayne, Bemidji, Southwest, etc. aren't consistently deep enough, big enough, rich enough or good enough to keep up with the former NCC schools. They always dominate the all-sports standings, which is what certain people use as a school's measure of if you're worthy to be in a conference.

[Purple Mav Man]

Correct, it's small for the NSIC. But the NSIC isn't necessarily representative of Division II as a whole, just like the MVFC isn't necessarily representative of FCS as a whole. Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

I get that it would be great to have perfect fits across the board in all sports in order to deem someone worthy of the NSIC....but if that's the case what we're really talking about is the former NCC teams. Schools like Northern, Wayne, Bemidji, Southwest, etc. aren't consistently deep enough, big enough, rich enough or good enough to keep up with the former NCC schools. They always dominate the all-sports standings, which is what certain people use as a school's measure of if you're worthy to be in a conference.

The bolded in the first paragraph is a Gumby level stretch. Indiana State didn’t change divisions, affiliations and just join the MVC. So no, not equivalent.

If adding at all, it would be great. It would even be great to add another Northern, Southwest, Bemidji…but the NSIC added another Crookston. It’s not being used as a measure to determine worthiness of being in a conference. It’s a discussion point of how they can’t even compete in their current situation, so many of us find it very difficult to believe they’ll be able to compete in their new situation. And the conference musical chairs they’ve played doesn’t exactly instill confidence either. But alas, here come the Jimmies.

[zimmy21]

Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

Is that not how you were talking about the Summit Schools? They can't compete with the Big Ten or SEC so they shouldn't even be D1?

[zimmy21]

I can't agree with this.

The North Star was falling apart and a league where teams had to play each other twice and all that fun of a tiny league. It was only a matter of time before that league had to fold. UJ was also a geographic outpost in the GPAC..so they were in a bad spot in terms of having a conference home that would work long term. When UJ got the ball rolling for D2, the Frontier East wasn't a thing..and that isn't a good thing for the NStar teams anyway with the wild travels they'll have out west.

The fact stands that the NSIC saved them, and brought them in for nothing more than to be a body when other established athletic universities could have been approached. Maybe they did and we don't know about it, but we were not in a situation that we needed them in the slightest. Now we are stuck with them and are no better for it.

[SW_Mustang]

Correct, it's small for the NSIC. But the NSIC isn't necessarily representative of Division II as a whole, just like the MVFC isn't necessarily representative of FCS as a whole. Should Indiana State be pressured to drop to Division II because they can't compete with NDSU and SDSU in football? That's the equivalent of how people discuss Jamestown here.

I get that it would be great to have perfect fits across the board in all sports in order to deem someone worthy of the NSIC....but if that's the case what we're really talking about is the former NCC teams. Schools like Northern, Wayne, Bemidji, Southwest, etc. aren't consistently deep enough, big enough, rich enough or good enough to keep up with the former NCC schools. They always dominate the all-sports standings, which is what certain people use as a school's measure of if you're worthy to be in a conference.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make in relation to what I've said.

Take UJ out of the equation if it helps - because this really applies everywhere. If X school uses the football roster as an enrollment strategy, the only real payoff they'll get is freshman tuition. Once the back end of that roster drops out of football after year one, very few, if any of them stay with the university. Schools that do this aren't competitive at football nor do they increase their retention/graduation rates, which are far more valuable metrics than freshman enrollment.

Jamestown is a small town by any metric. It's not an attractive place to keep those students dropping off, especially when NDSU is 70 miles away.

You lost me with the MVFC, Indiana State, NCC, and Wayne State. I don't get what any of that has to do with UJ enrollment.

[SW_Mustang]

Is that not how you were talking about the Summit Schools? They can't compete with the Big Ten or SEC so they shouldn't even be D1?

No, that's what I said.

I don't want to turn on the TV and see A teams play MLB teams, UFL teams play NFL teams, or SPHL teams playing NHL teams. It waters the product down. Apparently I'm weird for thinking that way, I guess.

[Matt Witwicki]

The fact stands that the NSIC saved them, and brought them in for nothing more than to be a body when other established athletic universities could have been approached. Maybe they did and we don't know about it, but we were not in a situation that we needed them in the slightest. Now we are stuck with them and are no better for it.

Now you are changing the discussion. I was responding to their current situation in the NAIA specifically..and it wasn't a good position to be in. You can't blame UJ for coming to the D2 and the NSIC..The league obviously saw value in bringing them in to bolster the head count in a D2 world where things can change quickly and all the sudden the league you thought you had has quick defections and then you have near nothing = see the GNAC, GSC, and the scheduling challenges of the GLIAC.

I realize we are nearing 200 pages of Jamestown hand-wringing, but the season is now upon us and they will be playing games. I'm personally ready to turn the page on the "should they be in the league" discussion.

Carry on..