Should Jamestown be accepted into the NSIC?

[Thunder]

Dear god, now you're trying to make me feel old but there are freshman on Wayne's football team that were in Preschool in 2009. I don't know if I'd include 2007, 2008, or 2009 as recent lol. I was a Junior/Senior in high school and a freshman in college for the 3 years Wayne was good before last year lol A lot has changed

Haha, I misread this at first thinking you were a freshman for 3 years. I've know some people that took 7 years to to get their undergrad, but the extra years usually come on the back end not the front.

[zimmy21]

Wayne went to the Mineral Water Bowl in 2007, the NCAA playoffs in 2008, and went 8-3 in 2009.

.

Dear god, now you're trying to make me feel old but there are freshman on Wayne's football team that were in Preschool in 2009. I don't know if I'd include 2007, 2008, or 2009 as recent lol. I was a Junior/Senior in high school and a freshman in college for the 3 years Wayne was good before last year lol A lot has changed

[SW_Mustang]

That's exactly right, it's a sad truth. It feels often that schools throw a program out there sometimes. Every School has it's focuses, I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks the remaining 14 schools have as their primary focus athletically.

Augustana - Hockey / Basketball for NSIC sports
Bemidji - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Concordia - Volleyball
Mary - Cross Country?
Crookston - Baseball?
Duluth - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Mankato - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Moorhead - Basketball
Minot - Baseball? Maybe Soccer? Moreso Club Hockey
Northern - Basketball
Sioux Falls - Football
Southwest - Volleyball
St. Cloud - Hockey / Wrestling for NSIC sports
Wayne - Volleyball
Winona - Track? Baseball? Do they even care about Basketball anymore?

I still love the pipe dream of the NSIC sponsoring D1 hockey if we could get Minot to make the jump, or Moorehead who was looking into it years ago.

I've always thought of SCSU as more of a baseball school sans football, but wrestling is probably more accurate. Crookston is definitely baseball.

Winona seems to be in the middle of the road on a lot of things. Football is usually competent, basketball, baseball is decent-ish, volleyball can spoil someone else's day - but they don't seem to be "great" at anything.

Mary is actually quite competent at club hockey, fwiw.

[UMary1]

Thanks for the insight. Montana seems to be the most consistent and realistic spot to establish a recruiting base that can compete in the NSIC. The AZ and CA kids are nice additions, but so tough to rely on that pipeline. I know there are only so many kids in the upper Midwest to go around for all of the football schools, but it drives me crazy when I look through the ND college’s recruiting classes and there is maybe a handful of kids from the Tri-State area. History has proven many times over that you cannot build a program that way. I did not know much about your new HC but he sure seems like the right guy to try climb that mountain if there ever was one. Hoping for a recruiting class full of MT kids for you guys.

Could not agree more, as an Alum and supporter of the program I used to get excited seeing some flash from AZ, NV or CA but have come to realize the Tri-State formula as a foundation with some difference makers Ie( in today's game Grad transfers from all around are what lead success and sustainable programs. I will say this, I think staff turn over is also key. Lately Mary has been going through position coaches like halloween candy. I understand the nature of the carrousel but it makes me wonder why we can't at least string 2-3 years with some returning coaches. This goes a long way in recruiting and building momentum.

[Augieholic]

2. Some recency bias sneaking in there. Wayne was pretty bad to average for years before their recent climb that began in 2021. 17 losing seasons since 1995 for them. That is no knock to them at all as they are now a top tier team in the NSIC. Just shows that one of the middling teams can make the jump into the upper echelon.

Wayne went to the Mineral Water Bowl in 2007, the NCAA playoffs in 2008, and went 8-3 in 2009.

I agree with your overall point though that schools like Bemidji and Wayne can overcome their funding/location disparities and compete with the right hires and players.

[zimmy21]

St Cloud and Duluth would probably leave the NSIC if they had to give up membership in the NCHC.

I'm struggling to see how that's bad lol

[Millsy]

That's exactly right, it's a sad truth. It feels often that schools throw a program out there sometimes. Every School has it's focuses, I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks the remaining 14 schools have as their primary focus athletically.

Augustana - Hockey / Basketball for NSIC sports
Bemidji - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Concordia - Volleyball
Mary - Cross Country?
Crookston - Baseball?
Duluth - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Mankato - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Moorhead - Basketball
Minot - Baseball? Maybe Soccer? Moreso Club Hockey
Northern - Basketball
Sioux Falls - Football
Southwest - Volleyball
St. Cloud - Hockey / Wrestling for NSIC sports
Wayne - Volleyball
Winona - Track? Baseball? Do they even care about Basketball anymore?

I still love the pipe dream of the NSIC sponsoring D1 hockey if we could get Minot to make the jump, or Moorehead who was looking into it years ago.

St Cloud and Duluth would probably leave the NSIC if they had to give up membership in the NCHC.

[zimmy21]

The NSIC is already two football leagues operating underneath the same umbrella.


Each institution has its own goals and commitment for their athletic department. Obviously they vary greatly from school to school and market to market.

That's exactly right, it's a sad truth. It feels often that schools throw a program out there sometimes. Every School has it's focuses, I'd be interested to see what everyone thinks the remaining 14 schools have as their primary focus athletically.

Augustana - Hockey / Basketball for NSIC sports
Bemidji - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Concordia - Volleyball
Mary - Cross Country?
Crookston - Baseball?
Duluth - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Mankato - Hockey / Football for NSIC sports
Moorhead - Basketball
Minot - Baseball? Maybe Soccer? Moreso Club Hockey
Northern - Basketball
Sioux Falls - Football
Southwest - Volleyball
St. Cloud - Hockey / Wrestling for NSIC sports
Wayne - Volleyball
Winona - Track? Baseball? Do they even care about Basketball anymore?

I still love the pipe dream of the NSIC sponsoring D1 hockey if we could get Minot to make the jump, or Moorehead who was looking into it years ago.

[D2FootballFan1992]

No offence taken at all. This is the million dollar question. To answer this question you need to peel the onion back a bit. Looking at programs in the NSIC from Minnesota who have been successful historically they have a core group of in state talent with some sprinkled in difference makers from surrounding states. The comment you made in your previous post about UMary being too far west has some merit. Yes, we have great facilities. Bismarck caters to its University and its a great place to be a student-athlete but its not jaw dropping and its not enough to make a bunch of Minnesota recruits drive 8-10 hours when they can stay in state. North Dakota does not have the in state numbers (high school recruits) to build any momentum-these are just the facts. Kolenecki tried this and it was a disaster, really set the program back. I would have hired Jason Petrino for the job but you cant go back in time.

UMary has had its best seasons when they hit on Arizona or Vegas recruits, (this is a crapshoot). Or and this is the big Or, they get into Montana and bring in some difference makers. My hope is the new regime, takes Carrol, Montana Tech and the fringe Montana Grizz players with Schenn's Montana ties. If they are able to conquer the state of Montana they can be a 6-5 or 7-4 program. This recruiting class will say a lot.

Thanks for the insight. Montana seems to be the most consistent and realistic spot to establish a recruiting base that can compete in the NSIC. The AZ and CA kids are nice additions, but so tough to rely on that pipeline. I know there are only so many kids in the upper Midwest to go around for all of the football schools, but it drives me crazy when I look through the ND college’s recruiting classes and there is maybe a handful of kids from the Tri-State area. History has proven many times over that you cannot build a program that way. I did not know much about your new HC but he sure seems like the right guy to try climb that mountain if there ever was one. Hoping for a recruiting class full of MT kids for you guys.

[D2FootballFan1992]

The NSIC is already two football leagues operating underneath the same umbrella.

There is, and has been for several years, a clear divide between UMD, Mankato, Augie, USF, Bemidji, Winona, and Wayne compared to the rest of the league. Those teams may wobble from season to season but they will be ones who decide the conference title and determine who goes to the playoffs.

That leaves Northern, Moorhead, Mary, Minot, Concordia, and SMSU in the other category. Some of these teams may get frisky year to year but largely are not part of the conference title/playoff conversation. Should Jamestown join the league I suspect they would join this collective.

Each institution has its own goals and commitment for their athletic department. Obviously they vary greatly from school to school and market to market.

Two points:


1. That is true of any football conference at any level, definitely not unique to the NSIC. You will have your perennial powerhouses that are always going to be a legitimate contender, some teams in the middle, and then a few teams teams at the bottom. What I look for is that a team has the legitimate resources and capability to climb the ladder at this division. Crookston did not. Minot looking like it may never. Mary has been trying but no results yet. Jamestown I fear would fall into that category as well. The other teams have at least shown they can be competitive when they get the right pieces put together. If the NSIC were to add a team, it would sure be nice if it were in that category and not the perennial bottom feeder.


2. Some recency bias sneaking in there. Wayne was pretty bad to average for years before their recent climb that began in 2021. 17 losing seasons since 1995 for them. That is no knock to them at all as they are now a top tier team in the NSIC. Just shows that one of the middling teams can make the jump into the upper echelon.

[UMary1]

I don’t disagree with you. But I am sure fans of Mary and Minot would love to dig their way out of the bottom and I am just curious what they believe it will take to accomplish it. With Jamestown being geographically close to them, I would imagine it would be the same blue print for them to ever succeed if they are allowed in the NSIC.

in a perfect world, the “bottom feeders” would be more or less cyclical and not just 3-4 schools that have no shot of ever being competitive.

No offence taken at all. This is the million dollar question. To answer this question you need to peel the onion back a bit. Looking at programs in the NSIC from Minnesota who have been successful historically they have a core group of in state talent with some sprinkled in difference makers from surrounding states. The comment you made in your previous post about UMary being too far west has some merit. Yes, we have great facilities. Bismarck caters to its University and its a great place to be a student-athlete but its not jaw dropping and its not enough to make a bunch of Minnesota recruits drive 8-10 hours when they can stay in state. North Dakota does not have the in state numbers (high school recruits) to build any momentum-these are just the facts. Kolenecki tried this and it was a disaster, really set the program back. I would have hired Jason Petrino for the job but you cant go back in time.

UMary has had its best seasons when they hit on Arizona or Vegas recruits, (this is a crapshoot). Or and this is the big Or, they get into Montana and bring in some difference makers. My hope is the new regime, takes Carrol, Montana Tech and the fringe Montana Grizz players with Schenn's Montana ties. If they are able to conquer the state of Montana they can be a 6-5 or 7-4 program. This recruiting class will say a lot.

[Augieholic]

The NSIC is already two football leagues operating underneath the same umbrella.

There is, and has been for several years, a clear divide between UMD, Mankato, Augie, USF, Bemidji, Winona, and Wayne compared to the rest of the league. Those teams may wobble from season to season but they will be ones who decide the conference title and determine who goes to the playoffs.

That leaves Northern, Moorhead, Mary, Minot, Concordia, and SMSU in the other category. Some of these teams may get frisky year to year but largely are not part of the conference title/playoff conversation. Should Jamestown join the league I suspect they would join this collective.

Each institution has its own goals and commitment for their athletic department. Obviously they vary greatly from school to school and market to market.

[Stanger86]

In some ways, when the NSIC welcomed the former NCCers in, I think it was most of the league accepting and being OK with probably never being at the top consistently in football. Only a few programs really have broken through that barrier and stayed there for a while.

Wayne -- As the school that is the furthest south, they have a unique recruiting advantage over the rest of the NSIC in a rather large Omaha market area. A lot of talented football players in the state and they can't all walk on at a floundering Huskers program.

Sioux Falls -- They were able to continue the successful blueprint they had in the NAIA and bring it over to Division II. Once they moved up, Augustana was their toughest competition in-market for a growing football region.

Bemidji -- I'd say it takes a unique football player to play home games in the fall in Bemidji. It's a market share that they largely have to their own. Bolte and his staff have bought into that and they've been able to sustain their success.

[D2FootballFan1992]

I think everyone needs to accept that isn't realistic to expect all 13 schools to be "competitive" to the point some here think is a requirement to be in the NSIC. If Mary, Minot, Jamestown, Southwest, etc are all "competitive" on a yearly basis, it might just mean that teams are winning the league with 2 or 3 losses minimum. For those fans of programs with yearly championship aspirations, are you sure you want that? Do you want only one program to escape out of the NSIC regular season good enough to make and compete in the postseason?

If you have three of the top programs in Division II, odds are likely to have a few bottom-feeder programs in that sport as well.

I don’t disagree with you. But I am sure fans of Mary and Minot would love to dig their way out of the bottom and I am just curious what they believe it will take to accomplish it. With Jamestown being geographically close to them, I would imagine it would be the same blue print for them to ever succeed if they are allowed in the NSIC.

in a perfect world, the “bottom feeders” would be more or less cyclical and not just 3-4 schools that have no shot of ever being competitive.

[Stanger86]

I don’t mean this as an insult, but what do you think it will take for Mary to get back to being competitive in the league? They had some real talent the last couple seasons, but all that amounted to is a 4 win season. From my outside opinion, it seems like Mary has struggled to get good local talent that can legitimately play in the NSIC. They’ve had a few guys here and there, but never feels like they are pulling a consistent crop of talented athletes from ND, MN, SD. If I remember correctly, Kotelnicki tried very hard to establish an ND recruiting base, but that staff went for quantity over quality and failed miserably.

I have visited the campus in the last year and it is incredible. Just hasn’t turned into results in the W/L column yet. Is it just far enough West where it’s hard to get kids from MN, WI, SD? Curious what you think needs to happen.

I think everyone needs to accept that isn't realistic to expect all 13 schools to be "competitive" to the point some here think is a requirement to be in the NSIC. If Mary, Minot, Jamestown, Southwest, etc are all "competitive" on a yearly basis, it might just mean that teams are winning the league with 2 or 3 losses minimum. For those fans of programs with yearly championship aspirations, are you sure you want that? Do you want only one program to escape out of the NSIC regular season good enough to make and compete in the postseason?

If you have three of the top programs in Division II, odds are likely to have a few bottom-feeder programs in that sport as well.