Should Jamestown be accepted into the NSIC?

[Purple Mav Man]

Anecdotal situations always seem to be the biggest argument regarding whether or not a school should move up. There are 10-20 UC-Upstates for every 1 Butler. The odds that a small school can simply move up, be truly competitive, and maintain it - especially post-portal/NIL is insanely slim. Possible? Absolutely. Likely? No.

This part needs some clarification. Small school doesn’t matter. (As an example, MSU has roughly 17k students: that’s very comparable to many D1 schools). They can have tremendous support and backing. Many of the ‘small’ schools in D1 are private, though. Wake Forest is fairly successful and they are tiny. But they are in a power conference. THAT’S the big difference to me. Being in an also-ran D1 conference does nothing. If you’re in a P4/5 conference, it’s a different animal. And none of our local D2 schools are getting invited to those D1 conferences anytime soon.

[SW_Mustang]

This part needs some clarification. Small school doesn’t matter. (As an example, MSU has roughly 17k students: that’s very comparable to many D1 schools). They can have tremendous support and backing. Many of the ‘small’ schools in D1 are private, though. Wake Forest is fairly successful and they are tiny. But they are in a power conference. THAT’S the big difference to me. Being in an also-ran D1 conference does nothing. If you’re in a P4/5 conference, it’s a different animal. And none of our local D2 schools are getting invited to those D1 conferences anytime soon.

Very true - I used the wrong word. "Small" is ambiguous and I was thinking more along the lines as you describe. "Outsider" schools might be a better descriptor.

I didn't want to use "lower division" as a descriptor because I genuinely believe 50%+ of D1 should not be D1 as it is. It's actually gotten bad enough that I'd might even argue it's an embarrassment to the label of "Division I" when they're letting in every UNO/UMKC/St. Thomas out there.

[MrMustang]

MrMustang
Too many posts to quote all :)

Other than the post from Vikingfaithful about football, where else have the fans of the former NCC schools said they are too good for the rest of the conference? Many of you SMSU fans have confused the take thinking Jamestown isn't a fit for the conference means we’re all too good for the NSIC. The opposite in fact, my position is the NSIC is better than adding Jamestown in a panic.

Regarding D1 and Mankato. There is one fan on here consistently beating that drum for Mankato. Another one that chimes in from time to time. The others of us have clearly stated we’d prefer to remain D2. That is one of the reasons adding Jamestown in this manner is so disappointing, it feels like a regression.

Comparing the former NCC schools and their ‘begging’ to be part of the NSIC to adding Jamestown is beyond ridiculous. About the only thing they have in common is looking for a conference. The NCC schools were well established division 2 schools already.

My context is back when the merger happened and shortly thereafter. At that time there were many posts by Augie and Mankato fans about slumming rather than going D1 - that was a long time ago to be fair but that is my comment and context.

I didn't mean to compare it to the addition of Jamestown, but I can see how that could be the perception.

[MrMustang]

Would they though? Or would fear rule the day? In all reality what's the difference to a school if you win a conference championship in D2, as opposed to bottom of the pack in a low to mid major at D1?

What is the College Sports world going to look like in 10 years? Are you being proactive or reactive? I'd much rather my school be proactive.

I think this is a great point on the unknown future.

we have no idea how it will look except the big boys will have more $$$ and that many smaller schools like those in MnSCU and the NSIC will always be struggling for money. I do think we might see more schools close -- as we have seen several close in the last 2 years (which caused much of this upheavel)

Case in point it Presentation doesn't close, hlaf this thread is moot. Waldorf doesn't bolt at this time, neother does Viterbo and the North Star still sits at 8 schools and hangs in there. Maybe not forever, but probably a few more years.

It's also a reasonable opinion that if Upper Iowa wasn't on the verge of going broke they don't leave the NSIC as they have big cuts coming

[MrMustang]

"Better" is subjective. Personally, I think it's "better" to say where one is reasonably competitive across the most sports. For some, "better" is the financial incentive that comes with the possibility of a one-and-done appearance in the NCAA tournament.

In MSU's case, first and foremost I want nothing to be done that hurts hockey. PFL football and Summit League basketball are not worth ruining the premier program at the school. Secondly, they can be reasonably competitive in football/basketball/baseball/volleyball at D2, which I have severe doubt they can maintain at D1. Baseball would be competent, the others not so much.

I tend to agree with much of this, but what D1 is has really changed after COVID and big time football movement.

Example -- The Barn is half empty and used to be the toughest ticket in town. Social media, endless entertainment options, and high costs and incovience to attend games has chaged it all. I have said numerous times how SMSU just assumed the fans would come back. They really havent done much to get them back and the crowds are at best half what they were 2019 --- not all their fault -- but partly for sure.

schools ahve taken fans for granted in some cases but part of it is more options out there.

long way to get to one point I want to make. Mankato already has a great D1 basketball arena in the new modern era. Seats 4000-5000. nice place -- more than good enough compared to many D1 arenas. no idea is going D1 would increase attendance.

football would need some suites and a remodel on one side, but maybe doable. Same thing could be said for Augie and the Pentagon and their football stadium

[Purple Mav Man]

My context is back when the merger happened and shortly thereafter. At that time there were many posts by Augie and Mankato fans about slumming rather than going D1 - that was a long time ago to be fair but that is my comment and context.

I didn't mean to compare it to the addition of Jamestown, but I can see how that could be the perception.

I appreciate the context and follow up. That makes sense. I’ve been on the board a long time and lurked prior to joining, like many, but I didn’t remember seeing anything like that. Since it was back at the time of the merger, I’ll certainly take your word for it. So again, thank you for providing the context and info 👍🏻

Gotcha. It seemed as though that’s been the case. But if that’s not your intention, I’ll stop reading it that way.

[Purple Mav Man]

I tend to agree with much of this, but what D1 is has really changed after COVID and big time football movement.

Example -- The Barn is half empty and used to be the toughest ticket in town. Social media, endless entertainment options, and high costs and incovience to attend games has chaged it all. I have said numerous times how SMSU just assumed the fans would come back. They really havent done much to get them back and the crowds are at best half what they were 2019 --- not all their fault -- but partly for sure.

schools ahve taken fans for granted in some cases but part of it is more options out there.

long way to get to one point I want to make. Mankato already has a great D1 basketball arena in the new modern era. Seats 4000-5000. nice place -- more than good enough compared to many D1 arenas. no idea is going D1 would increase attendance.

football would need some suites and a remodel on one side, but maybe doable. Same thing could be said for Augie and the Pentagon and their football stadium

The Completely Outdated Sh!thole (the barn) has been half full or less for much longer than post-Covid. It’s been over 20 years since it’s been a tough ticket. The rest of your post is pretty spot on.

[SW_Mustang]

I tend to agree with much of this, but what D1 is has really changed after COVID and big time football movement.

Example -- The Barn is half empty and used to be the toughest ticket in town. Social media, endless entertainment options, and high costs and incovience to attend games has chaged it all. I have said numerous times how SMSU just assumed the fans would come back. They really havent done much to get them back and the crowds are at best half what they were 2019 --- not all their fault -- but partly for sure.

schools ahve taken fans for granted in some cases but part of it is more options out there.

long way to get to one point I want to make. Mankato already has a great D1 basketball arena in the new modern era. Seats 4000-5000. nice place -- more than good enough compared to many D1 arenas. no idea is going D1 would increase attendance.

football would need some suites and a remodel on one side, but maybe doable. Same thing could be said for Augie and the Pentagon and their football stadium

IMO - they would see a spike in attendance for the first year, maybe two. But games against Western Illinois are not going to put butts in seats. It's just not happening. Once the casual fan realizes that being "D1" means playing games against schools nobody has ever heard of, and not against Duke and UCONN every night, people will stop caring.

At least being in the NSIC means they can play local schools that they have history with that will bring a contingent of fans with them.

Augustana going D1 is mildly interesting because of market share - to me anyway. I know Sioux Falls is supposedly an SDSU town, but I wanted to see what Augie could do in that market. Guess I'll get a taste with hockey.

[laker]

I think this is a great point on the unknown future.

we have no idea how it will look except the big boys will have more $$$ and that many smaller schools like those in MnSCU and the NSIC will always be struggling for money. I do think we might see more schools close -- as we have seen several close in the last 2 years (which caused much of this upheavel)

Case in point it Presentation doesn't close, hlaf this thread is moot. Waldorf doesn't bolt at this time, neother does Viterbo and the North Star still sits at 8 schools and hangs in there. Maybe not forever, but probably a few more years.

It's also a reasonable opinion that if Upper Iowa wasn't on the verge of going broke they don't leave the NSIC as they have big cuts coming

I'll never figure out why UIU went D2 and had to do a lot of travelling when they could have stayed D3.

[Stanger86]

IMO - they would see a spike in attendance for the first year, maybe two. But games against Western Illinois are not going to put butts in seats. It's just not happening. Once the casual fan realizes that being "D1" means playing games against schools nobody has ever heard of, and not against Duke and UCONN every night, people will stop caring.

At least being in the NSIC means they can play local schools that they have history with that will bring a contingent of fans with them.

The appeal for anyone in moving up is the dream of joining the Summit, playing NDSU, SDSU, USD, UND, Omaha, St. Thomas....

The downside is that if they don't want you, you're left feeling the way UND felt their first handful of years in Division I because they were on an island by themselves in the Big Sky.

[Stanger86]

I'll never figure out why UIU went D2 and had to do a lot of travelling when they could have stayed D3.

I wish I could remember the order of how things went. Did UIU start the push and UMary came after? Or was Mary the one, and after grumbles from the eastern Northern Sun, Upper Iowa was convinced to join the party?

[SW_Mustang]

The appeal for anyone in moving up is the dream of joining the Summit, playing NDSU, SDSU, USD, UND, Omaha, St. Thomas....

The downside is that if they don't want you, you're left feeling the way UND felt their first handful of years in Division I because they were on an island by themselves in the Big Sky.

That's a sad dream lol. SDSU has some minor appeal and UST on a technicality because they are in-state, but I couldn't imagine being the guy that wants to watch UNO or NDSU basketball.

So much else to do in Mankato on a Friday night.

[Purple Mav Man]

The appeal for anyone in moving up is the dream of joining the Summit, playing NDSU, SDSU, USD, UND, Omaha, St. Thomas....

The downside is that if they don't want you, you're left feeling the way UND felt their first handful of years in Division I because they were on an island by themselves in the Big Sky.

That is a very low level dream…I’m not sure if anyone dreams of playing in the Summit. Which also likely means Pioneer League football. Which is below the NSIC as SMSU found out this year.

I do agree with the big downside if unwanted.

You’ve basically laid out two reasons I’d like MSU to remain D2 at the time. For D1, the Summit is closer to nightmare than dream, especially given they don’t have football. And being left out of even that very low D1 conference would be even worse. Gross. And people think nobody attends Mavs sports now…haha

[SW_Mustang]

UNO is likely what MSU could aspire to be if they go D1 - just with PFL football instead of no football.

Crazy to think some people think that's a goal worth striving for. UNO athletics is a sad state of affairs, sans hockey.

[Stanger86]

That is a very low level dream…I’m not sure if anyone dreams of playing in the Summit. Which also likely means Pioneer League football. Which is below the NSIC as SMSU found out this year.

I do agree with the big downside if unwanted.

You’ve basically laid out two reasons I’d like MSU to remain D2 at the time. For D1, the Summit is closer to nightmare than dream, especially given they don’t have football. And being left out of even that very low D1 conference would be even worse. Gross. And people think nobody attends Mavs sports now…haha

To be fair, Valparaiso is near the very bottom of the Pioneer. It's non-scholarship, but the bottom is honestly not that much different from the bottom of the NSIC. But the top end can be very good. And you can open up potential revenue streams like SDSU playing at Iowa or USD going to play at Kansas State.

I actually think the Summit would be fine with Mankato joining. I think the Augie thing didn't work solely for the fact of the Sioux Falls market share.