Is college sport on life support?

[D2Rover]

I'm disappointed but not shocked that most Americans have no problem with the Courts telling a non-profit organization that they aren't allowed to preserve amateurism. Players opt-in to playing sports at NCAA institutions, effectively nobody is forced to play.

I think at the D2 level there will be some understanding that collective bargaining for a price that universities can't budget for would be counter-productive. There are clearly some money-chasers out there, but a lot of D2 athletes are normal kids who are happy they get some school paid for while still getting to play - not sure if that's the majority of Men's basketball players, but most other sports it is.

[SW_Mustang]

I'm disappointed but not shocked that most Americans have no problem with the Courts telling a non-profit organization that they aren't allowed to preserve amateurism. Players opt-in to playing sports at NCAA institutions, effectively nobody is forced to play.

I think at the D2 level there will be some understanding that collective bargaining for a price that universities can't budget for would be counter-productive. There are clearly some money-chasers out there, but a lot of D2 athletes are normal kids who are happy they get some school paid for while still getting to play - not sure if that's the majority of Men's basketball players, but most other sports it is.

Couple of things -

1. Big schools profit millions (billions collectively) off of the athletes. ADs and coaches get massive salaries. Huge TV contracts and branding deals that make private companies rich - yet a coach can't give a player $10 for a sandwich. These athletes put in work developing themselves and thus, their name - yet they couldn't profit off of it. There's no other facet of higher education where this is even remotely acceptable.

2. "Amateurism" is only a thing in the United States and was only declared by the NCAA to skirt taxes. Prior, colleges just outright paid players.

3. "NIL" and "stipends" have existed for decades. It's very well known that boosters were funneling money to players. It probably cost the NCAA too much to fight it.

It's frankly silly that we've attached sports to academics and refuse to pay skilled players before they get to the pros. We have to be the only country with such a backwards way of athletic development.

[MooseLodge]

Personally, I think most ballplayers are smarter than that...especially the ones who have taken Econ 101 their freshman year.

smarter than those kids at Dartmouth, who voted to unionize?

[SW_Mustang]

...and that percentage is even lower in D2.

Things are crazy and getting crazier at the D1 level, but I don't think too many D2 programs are going to find themselves in wholesale negotiations with multiple players. Some programs might have to negotiate with a couple every year or so, but I think the vast majority of D2 programs would hold the upperhand at this level and in this matter, as potentially opposed to the D1 counterparts. On the other hand, if unionization is the future across the board, then yeah, a lot of D2 programs probably will have to close shop...and a lot of kids who would have gotten a free education playing ball will suddenly find themselves in the employment line at Costco. Personally, I think most ballplayers are smarter than that...especially the ones who have taken Econ 101 their freshman year.

The transfer portal will make things tough in D2 but NIL and some of these other changes will be an almost non-factor except for some anecdotal situations.

I think a bigger threat to D2 is the potential domino effect of conference re-alignments and/or the P4 exiting the NCAA. I almost wonder if there's not going to be a massive reclassification that takes place in the next 10-20 years.

[MooseLodge]

Couple of things -

1. Big schools profit millions (billions collectively) off of the athletes. ADs and coaches get massive salaries. Huge TV contracts and branding deals that make private companies rich - yet a coach can't give a player $10 for a sandwich. These athletes put in work developing themselves and thus, their name - yet they couldn't profit off of it. There's no other facet of higher education where this is even remotely acceptable.

2. "Amateurism" is only a thing in the United States and was only declared by the NCAA to skirt taxes. Prior, colleges just outright paid players.

3. "NIL" and "stipends" have existed for decades. It's very well known that boosters were funneling money to players. It probably cost the NCAA too much to fight it.

It's frankly silly that we've attached sports to academics and refuse to pay skilled players before they get to the pros. We have to be the only country with such a backwards way of athletic development.

Even the smallest schools are making bank of off players, only with a slightly different twist. There are a whole bunch of D2 and D3 schools out there with enrollments comprised mostly of athletes. In these situations, the entire "school" (using that term generously) is a farce. It works like this:

Crappensburg College, with an enrollment of 1100, has roughly 200 footballers on the roster, with another 300 athletes playing other sports. Average annual tuition and fees at Crappensburg are $40,000 a year. The average athlete is on some token scholarship - $5,000 a year - and the other $35,000 is paid by Pell Grants and student loans that the school helps them get. The athlete gets to brag to everyone back home that they received a "scholarship" to ball at Crappensburg State.

Meanwhile, only a small subset of these kids get to actually play. Most have no chance. For the rest, the clue phone starts ringing that they've been duped around then end of the second season. And with the school depending on the $20 million a year from the paying athletes, the entire curriculum of the school is dumbed down so that the athletes can remain eligible to play, and more importantly, keep the $ funds pumping into the school. Many classes are only "online" via a fancy version of YouTube, or if in person, by a Graduate Assistant being paid a pauper's wage.

Most of the athletes finally realize the ruse, along with their parents, and drop out, by then owing $50-100K to the school for a few worthless classes.

[MooseLodge]

The transfer portal will make things tough in D2 but NIL and some of these other changes will be an almost non-factor except for some anecdotal situations.

I think a bigger threat to D2 is the potential domino effect of conference re-alignments and/or the P4 exiting the NCAA. I almost wonder if there's not going to be a massive reclassification that takes place in the next 10-20 years.

Athletes being considered employees will break the bank for D2, not NIL. Think about your local D2 or D3 school having to employ all of the student athletes, complying with your state's various wage & hour laws. Minimum wage, minimum and maximum hours, overtime, mandatory benefits, health insurance, Paid Time Off, Sick leave, Affordable Care Act, DEI, minority hiring requirements, term & termination, workers compensation.

Big decisions coming to Crappensburing State.

[SW_Mustang]

Athletes being considered employees will break the bank for D2, not NIL. Think about your local D2 school having to employ all of the student athletes, complying with your state's various wage & hour laws. Minimum wage, minimum and maximum hours, overtime, mandatory benefits, health insurance, Paid Time Off, Sick leave, Affordable Care Act, DEI, minority hiring requirements, term & termination, workers compensation.

Big decisions coming to a university near you.

That's fair - I haven't had a chance to read up on the new situation hence why I didn't reference it.

But alas, the train is just gonna keep movin' right along. It always does whenever there's a drastic change.

[SW_Mustang]

Even the smallest schools are making bank of off players, only with a slightly different twist. There are a whole bunch of D2 and D3 schools out there with enrollments comprised mostly of athletes. In these situations, the entire "school" (using that term generously) is a farce. It works like this:

Crappensburg College, with an enrollment of 1100, has roughly 200 footballers on the roster, with another 300 athletes playing other sports. Average annual tuition and fees at Crappensburg are $40,000 a year. The average athlete is on some token scholarship - $5,000 a year - and the other $35,000 is paid by Pell Grants and student loans that the school helps them get. The athlete gets to brag to everyone back home that they received a "scholarship" to ball at Crappensburg State.

Meanwhile, only a small subset of these kids get to actually play. Most have no chance. For the rest, the clue phone starts ringing that they've been duped around then end of the second season. And with the school depending on the $20 million a year from the paying athletes, the entire curriculum of the school is dumbed down so that the athletes can remain eligible to play, and more importantly, keep the $ funds pumping into the school. Many classes are only "online" via a fancy version of YouTube, or if in person, by a Graduate Assistant being paid a pauper's wage.

Most of the athletes finally realize the ruse, along with their parents, and drop out, by then owing $50-100K to the school for a few worthless classes.

I'm aware that happens too, but it pales in comparison to what the big boys make. DIII is super egregious in this manner and many schools have started to offer programs in the last 20 years to take advantage of this "loophole."

Neat thing is, the NCAA can't bestow punishment on colleges if they offer paper courses because they dropped the ball on it in the past so many times.

Man, I just wish we had the academy system. It's so much better.

[SW_Mustang]

...and that percentage is even lower in D2.

Things are crazy and getting crazier at the D1 level, but I don't think too many D2 programs are going to find themselves in wholesale negotiations with multiple players. Some programs might have to negotiate with a couple every year or so, but I think the vast majority of D2 programs would hold the upperhand at this level and in this matter, as potentially opposed to the D1 counterparts. On the other hand, if unionization is the future across the board, then yeah, a lot of D2 programs probably will have to close shop...and a lot of kids who would have gotten a free education playing ball will suddenly find themselves in the employment line at Costco. Personally, I think most ballplayers are smarter than that...especially the ones who have taken Econ 101 their freshman year.

CostCo probably pays better than what a lot of these degrees are worth these days, especially at many of the D2 institutions out there.

Aside from CO/SD Mines and MI Tech, it's a pretty brutal landscape out there.

[MooseLodge]

CostCo probably pays better than what a lot of these degrees are worth these days, especially at many of the D2 institutions out there.

Aside from CO/SD Mines and MI Tech, it's a pretty brutal landscape out there.

Agree.

The D1 institutions have figured out a way to offer two schools: One for the athletes, one for the actual students. The school for the athletes is a completely separate track. They have their own classes - mostly online, complete with an army of "tutors" and "counselors" to keep them passing so that they can ball.

The real students are in the other 15-20 buildings on campus.

But after COVID and the advent of virtual learning, schools figured out they can sell degrees for the same cost, by providing pre-recorded classes on YouTube. Actual in-person classes are going the way of the Dodo Bird.

BTW, love this thread - starting to get some really good discussion!

[Mule]

smarter than those kids at Dartmouth, who voted to unionize?

My comment was about D2 players, not D1 players. And certainly not about the Ivies - no reasonable comparison to D2.

[SW_Mustang]

Agree.

The D1 institutions have figured out a way to offer two schools: One for the athletes, one for the actual students. The school for the athletes is a completely separate track. They have their own classes - mostly online, complete with an army of "tutors" and "counselors" to keep them passing so that they can ball.

The real students are in the other 15-20 buildings on campus.

But after COVID and the advent of virtual learning, schools figured out they can sell degrees for the same cost, by providing pre-recorded classes on YouTube. Actual in-person classes are going the way of the Dodo Bird.

BTW, love this thread - starting to get some really good discussion!

The idea of the "student-athlete" is dead and has been for decades. Sure, not all of them are skirting the system, but looking at a list of academic scandals in college sports - it's wide spread. It's why Foster suggested we just let football players major in football. Call a spade a spade and move on. I mean, looking at some of what these kids are majoring in now - it's just semantics.

The neat part is, in some terms of academic undermining of athletes at major universities - there's not a lot the NCAA can do about it because they failed to levy any sort of punishment in the past. North Carolina got off scot free with 20 years of "violations," and were allowed in some regard to continue their practices. Meanwhile, the non-NFL football alumni of these schools have the pleasure of having a piece of paper with a fancy artistic logo on it, a major that amounts to clever sounding verbosity, and a lifetime of CTE/back pain.

D2 isn't exactly known for it's academically excellent institutions. P4 gets the big R1 flagships, FCS has the Ivy League, and DIII gets the small private LACs (and MIT). We're kinda in the middle - a landing spot for the kids who wanna go to college but weren't good enough (or rich enough) to go to a school with any kind of rigor. I almost dropped out because I couldn't understand how an institution in the middle of nowhere could provide a competent business degree, but alas - here I am.

The best part is the fans that choose to pull the wool over their eyes and think that everything is kosher current state and that these institutions would not undermine any athlete's education. It's the same people who would argue tooth and nail (pre-NIL) that their favorite CFB QB whose parents make $35k/year combined is absolutely not getting paid - while he drives a BMW around campus.

[Eagle74]

I bet the vast majority of D2 football programs would immediately shut down if their student athletes unionize for $$$$. A lot of them are already struggling to stay afloat as it's.

Greed greed greed without understanding the ramifications!!

Don't cook the goose that has been laying your golden eggs.

[MooseLodge]

My comment was about D2 players, not D1 players. And certainly not about the Ivies - no reasonable comparison to D2.

So the D2 players are going to be smarter than the D1 Ivies? Do you realize that have unionized and are collective bargaining for compensation? How is that different from any other division?

[MooseLodge]

The best part is the fans that choose to pull the wool over their eyes and think that everything is kosher current state and that these institutions would not undermine any athlete's education. It's the same people who would argue tooth and nail (pre-NIL) that their favorite CFB QB whose parents make $35k/year combined is absolutely not getting paid - while he drives a BMW around campus.

hard to argue that