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  • #16
    Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post

    It is likely that d1 versus d2 will always be exhibition. Otherwise it would hurt the critical strength of schedule calculation to get into ncaa tournament. If even if d2 school is comparable, d2 teams usually play only 1 d1 team a year so there is insufficient sample size.

    Some think exhibition, by definition, means d1 players are not trying hard to win. To answer that question one has to watch the game and make that assessment on a case by case basis. Most fans can tell if a team is not trying

    Otherwise it is a circular argument.
    d2 team loses? D1 will always win.
    d2 team wins? D1 was not trying.
    therefore d1 teams will always beat d2 teams.
    example of a type of fallacious reasoning.
    Im not saying that a DII team could NEVER beat a P5 D1. What I'm saying is that that W is going to be the DRASTIC exception to the rule. Seems like every year we have a pre-season litany about how DII Team X played big name D1 Team Y "tough" and only lost by 10 points. The implication is that DII Team X is almost as good as a top tier D1. I think that is just wishful thinking. Clearly a top tier D1 and DII team are going to approach this game differently and want different things from the game. DII want's to show that they are every bit as good as the top tier D1 and will burn out their starting 5 to try and do it. What the DII get's is the ability to say that they almost beat in this case DUKE, which is a really good thing to be able to say to a potential future recruit or an alumni donor...D1 wants a good game were they can try player combinations that they wouldn't try in a real game, they want to put bench players in positions that they probably won't get a chance to be in in the regular season (baring injury or foul outs) and if the game is close, the HC get's a coaching point that he can use to focus his players during practice.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

      Im not saying that a DII team could NEVER beat a P5 D1. What I'm saying is that that W is going to be the DRASTIC exception to the rule. Seems like every year we have a pre-season litany about how DII Team X played big name D1 Team Y "tough" and only lost by 10 points. The implication is that DII Team X is almost as good as a top tier D1. I think that is just wishful thinking. Clearly a top tier D1 and DII team are going to approach this game differently and want different things from the game. DII want's to show that they are every bit as good as the top tier D1 and will burn out their starting 5 to try and do it. What the DII get's is the ability to say that they almost beat in this case DUKE, which is a really good thing to be able to say to a potential future recruit or an alumni donor...D1 wants a good game were they can try player combinations that they wouldn't try in a real game, they want to put bench players in positions that they probably won't get a chance to be in in the regular season (baring injury or foul outs) and if the game is close, the HC get's a coaching point that he can use to focus his players during practice.
      My view is that a d2 team has to play a different style than the d1 team and take them out of their comfort zone. Five out players like wlu or NW MSU are examples. Wlu had6 players with effective Fg % > 60%. D1 bigs not used to guarding this type of player.
      This gives them a shot at winning. A friend watched Findlay play bowling green. They lost in OT due to lack of depth.

      my point is that one has to watch to game to determine that a d2 team that loses by 10 was not competitive. Otherwise the same could be said for a d1 team losing to another d1 team by 10 points.


      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Columbuseer View Post
        My view is that a d2 team has to play a different style than the d1 team and take them out of their comfort zone. Five out players like wlu or NW MSU are examples. Wlu had6 players with effective Fg % > 60%. D1 bigs not used to guarding this type of player.
        This gives them a shot at winning. A friend watched Findlay play bowling green. They lost in OT due to lack of depth.

        my point is that one has to watch to game to determine that a d2 team that loses by 10 was not competitive. Otherwise the same could be said for a d1 team losing to another d1 team by 10 points.

        h

        I agree. But who beyond a fan of the team is going to really watch the NWMSU v. Duke exhibition game much less any of the others? A fan of the DII team involved is probably not an impartial reporting source as he really want's to believe that his team is just as good as the D1 so his report on the game is going to be a bit squed. Case in point, the NWMSU v. Duke tilt ended with a 6 point Duke W. Sounds really close and it is presented as such. What is overlooked is the fact that Duke had a lead in the teens for most of the second half leading by as many as 19 points until NWMSU cut the deficit stating at about 2:10 to play by sinking 3 straight 3 pointers. Fan of that team is going to report how NWMSU went toe-to-toe with Duke and ALMOST beat them before losing by 6. He's going to talk about how his team gave Duke more than they could handle and about how Duke was aided by bad calls by the refs. He's not really going to talk about how they trailed by 15 points with 2:30 to play and how they trailed by 19 three times in the second half and including the late run were only within 10 points for four minutes.

        Hey, I root for a top tier DII and I also want to believe that my team is every bit as good as a top tier D1. My heart tells me that there is just no way that a top tier D1 would be able to shut down my scrappy Hilltopper shooters...no way they could possibly beat our press...no way they would be ready to run hike the "Toppers run. But then I watch a real D1 regular season game and I realize that I'm hoping for something that just is not real. Could we keep it close in an exhibition game? Maybe if we were hitting on all cylinders and the D1 didn't really take the game that seriously. But an exhibiltion game is quite a bitt different than a regular season game.
        Last edited by boatcapt; 11-01-2019, 10:42 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

          Are these exhibition games or real games??
          I've seen several instances for this season where the game is a 'real' game for the D1 but the D2 is counting it as an exhibition (reference Gannon playing at St. Bonaventue). Several D1 schools -- in particular the lower mid-major types -- are having issues filling in their non-conference schedules.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
            h

            I agree. But who beyond a fan of the team is going to really watch the NWMSU v. Duke exhibition game much less any of the others? A fan of the DII team involved is probably not an impartial reporting source as he really want's to believe that his team is just as good as the D1 so his report on the game is going to be a bit squed. Case in point, the NWMSU v. Duke tilt ended with a 6 point Duke W. Sounds really close and it is presented as such. What is overlooked is the fact that Duke had a lead in the teens for most of the second half leading by as many as 19 points until NWMSU cut the deficit stating at about 2:10 to play by sinking 3 straight 3 pointers. Fan of that team is going to report how NWMSU went toe-to-toe with Duke and ALMOST beat them before losing by 6. He's going to talk about how his team gave Duke more than they could handle and about how Duke was aided by bad calls by the refs. He's not really going to talk about how they trailed by 15 points with 2:30 to play and how they trailed by 19 three times in the second half and including the late run were only within 10 points for four minutes.

            Hey, I root for a top tier DII and I also want to believe that my team is every bit as good as a top tier D1. My heart tells me that there is just no way that a top tier D1 would be able to shut down my scrappy Hilltopper shooters...no way they could possibly beat our press...no way they would be ready to run hike the "Toppers run. But then I watch a real D1 regular season game and I realize that I'm hoping for something that just is not real. Could we keep it close in an exhibition game? Maybe if we were hitting on all cylinders and the D1 didn't really take the game that seriously. But an exhibiltion game is quite a bitt different than a regular season game.
            Imho for wlu to have a shot at beating top tier d1 team they have to make 50% of 30 3 point attempts and hope d1 shoots 40% or less and only 20% of 15 threes.

            imho the effectiveness of wlu pressure is An open issue that depends on basketball iq and team passing skills of opponents. Could be a disaster if d1 team is well coached.

            But d2 teams better be prepared for a whole new level of defensive pressure-caused chaos with Malik and Patrick joining the team.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
              h

              I agree. But who beyond a fan of the team is going to really watch the NWMSU v. Duke exhibition game much less any of the others? A fan of the DII team involved is probably not an impartial reporting source as he really want's to believe that his team is just as good as the D1 so his report on the game is going to be a bit squed. Case in point, the NWMSU v. Duke tilt ended with a 6 point Duke W. Sounds really close and it is presented as such. What is overlooked is the fact that Duke had a lead in the teens for most of the second half leading by as many as 19 points until NWMSU cut the deficit stating at about 2:10 to play by sinking 3 straight 3 pointers. Fan of that team is going to report how NWMSU went toe-to-toe with Duke and ALMOST beat them before losing by 6. He's going to talk about how his team gave Duke more than they could handle and about how Duke was aided by bad calls by the refs. He's not really going to talk about how they trailed by 15 points with 2:30 to play and how they trailed by 19 three times in the second half and including the late run were only within 10 points for four minutes.

              Hey, I root for a top tier DII and I also want to believe that my team is every bit as good as a top tier D1. My heart tells me that there is just no way that a top tier D1 would be able to shut down my scrappy Hilltopper shooters...no way they could possibly beat our press...no way they would be ready to run hike the "Toppers run. But then I watch a real D1 regular season game and I realize that I'm hoping for something that just is not real. Could we keep it close in an exhibition game? Maybe if we were hitting on all cylinders and the D1 didn't really take the game that seriously. But an exhibiltion game is quite a bitt different than a regular season game.
              While I am a NW fan and can't necessarily disagree with what you have said in this thread, what has been the average margin of victory for Duke in these games against D2 champs since they started doing them 10 years or so ago?

              Were they trying harder in previous years and didn't try as hard this year against NW? Or could it be that this is just an example that NW has a really good team again this year, regardless of whether there is a realistic chance they could beat Duke if both teams treated it as a regular season game.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
                h

                I agree. But who beyond a fan of the team is going to really watch the NWMSU v. Duke exhibition game much less any of the others? A fan of the DII team involved is probably not an impartial reporting source as he really want's to believe that his team is just as good as the D1 so his report on the game is going to be a bit squed. Case in point, the NWMSU v. Duke tilt ended with a 6 point Duke W. Sounds really close and it is presented as such. What is overlooked is the fact that Duke had a lead in the teens for most of the second half leading by as many as 19 points until NWMSU cut the deficit stating at about 2:10 to play by sinking 3 straight 3 pointers. Fan of that team is going to report how NWMSU went toe-to-toe with Duke and ALMOST beat them before losing by 6. He's going to talk about how his team gave Duke more than they could handle and about how Duke was aided by bad calls by the refs. He's not really going to talk about how they trailed by 15 points with 2:30 to play and how they trailed by 19 three times in the second half and including the late run were only within 10 points for four minutes.

                Hey, I root for a top tier DII and I also want to believe that my team is every bit as good as a top tier D1. My heart tells me that there is just no way that a top tier D1 would be able to shut down my scrappy Hilltopper shooters...no way they could possibly beat our press...no way they would be ready to run hike the "Toppers run. But then I watch a real D1 regular season game and I realize that I'm hoping for something that just is not real. Could we keep it close in an exhibition game? Maybe if we were hitting on all cylinders and the D1 didn't really take the game that seriously. But an exhibiltion game is quite a bitt different than a regular season game.
                Your not wrong, and I've seen some articles come out on after the Duke game that said Northwest almost took down Duke. I am a Northwest fan, and I do think we played competitively, but at no point during that game did I think we were going to pull it out. We battled as well as we could, but if we replayed that game 10 times, the 6 point loss was probably as close as we would ever come. The fact that we never quit and kept fighting when we were down big was a tribute to what we do, but let's be honest about what really happen. Duke played 11 players... I promise you against UNC, their bench will be a lot shorter. Northwest plays good perimeter defense, but Duke only hit two and shot 12% from 3 point range... I doubt that will ever happen again. The first half was pretty competitive and Northwest (Trevor Hudgins) got hot down the stretch and made the outcome look closer than it was. Like you said though, I think the intensity and everything would be a little more on point if it was a regular season game that counted for Duke, and/or if they really thought they had a chance of losing.

                It's rare that a D2 school will/can play with a D1 P5 school, but it can happen. Didn't Northern state take Arizona State to overtime last year or the year before? I believe Grand Valley State beat a ranked Michigan State team several years ago. I'm not even sure what/if you guys are arguing about and I don't think I want to go back and read all of it ;), but I'm just letting you know that as a fan of said team, I would never have tried to tell anyone we gave Duke more than they could handle. It's more like, "wow, we only lost by 6.. that's pretty cool". Your assessment falls inline with how I felt the game went. It was still a good showing, especially when it looked as if they were going to lose by 20+ for the majority of the second half. I will say that I'll watch other conference teams play D1 schools if they're on. Kansas has played a couple already, Mizzou plays Cental Missouri tonight, but otherwise, I probably wouldn't care.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by NWHoops View Post

                  While I am a NW fan and can't necessarily disagree with what you have said in this thread, what has been the average margin of victory for Duke in these games against D2 champs since they started doing them 10 years or so ago?

                  Were they trying harder in previous years and didn't try as hard this year against NW? Or could it be that this is just an example that NW has a really good team again this year, regardless of whether there is a realistic chance they could beat Duke if both teams treated it as a regular season game.
                  Oh I agree, NW is a VERY good and VERY experienced DII team. That certainly played to their advantage in this particular game. Nature of D1 top tier is that they rely a lot on freshmen. This years Duke squad for example is probably going to have three true freshmen in their starting lineup and a forth as one of their primary bench players. THis was their first "true" game together so it's understandable that they would struggle a bit. I think Coach K has found a great formula for giving his new players a tough game at the begining of each year against experienced foes without having it count. NW gave them that this year. And NW got what they wanted as well...chance to go up against a top 5 D1, play them tough, and reap the ability to "sell" this to future recruits and alumni donors. Win-win for both programs.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Alfred33 View Post

                    Your not wrong, and I've seen some articles come out on after the Duke game that said Northwest almost took down Duke. I am a Northwest fan, and I do think we played competitively, but at no point during that game did I think we were going to pull it out. We battled as well as we could, but if we replayed that game 10 times, the 6 point loss was probably as close as we would ever come. The fact that we never quit and kept fighting when we were down big was a tribute to what we do, but let's be honest about what really happen. Duke played 11 players... I promise you against UNC, their bench will be a lot shorter. Northwest plays good perimeter defense, but Duke only hit two and shot 12% from 3 point range... I doubt that will ever happen again. The first half was pretty competitive and Northwest (Trevor Hudgins) got hot down the stretch and made the outcome look closer than it was. Like you said though, I think the intensity and everything would be a little more on point if it was a regular season game that counted for Duke, and/or if they really thought they had a chance of losing.

                    It's rare that a D2 school will/can play with a D1 P5 school, but it can happen. Didn't Northern state take Arizona State to overtime last year or the year before? I believe Grand Valley State beat a ranked Michigan State team several years ago. I'm not even sure what/if you guys are arguing about and I don't think I want to go back and read all of it ;), but I'm just letting you know that as a fan of said team, I would never have tried to tell anyone we gave Duke more than they could handle. It's more like, "wow, we only lost by 6.. that's pretty cool". Your assessment falls inline with how I felt the game went. It was still a good showing, especially when it looked as if they were going to lose by 20+ for the majority of the second half. I will say that I'll watch other conference teams play D1 schools if they're on. Kansas has played a couple already, Mizzou plays Cental Missouri tonight, but otherwise, I probably wouldn't care.
                    Your points are well taken and I agree.

                    I wouldn't call it arguing...more just a difference of opinion. Columbus loves DII (as do I). We just differ in our opinion of what these games vs top tier D1's really mean.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by IUPbigINDIANS View Post

                      I've seen several instances for this season where the game is a 'real' game for the D1 but the D2 is counting it as an exhibition (reference Gannon playing at St. Bonaventue). Several D1 schools -- in particular the lower mid-major types -- are having issues filling in their non-conference schedules.
                      That was the case for SMSU/Nebraska last year. I didn't even know that was a possibility beforehand.

                      We opened up the season against SDSU for a few years and it was a regular season game for us. I don't think we ever beat them, though.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        IMO, basketball is the only sport (that I pay attention too) where a D2 can play a big time D1 and have a realistic chance at winning.

                        They are exhibitions, but I can't imagine Coach K wants to lose to a D2. His face would get plastered all over sports media, he'd get ridiculed on Twitter, and ESPN would definitely eat it up. Not even winning a title would scrub it away, either... Just because the game doesn't matter doesn't mean it doesn't "matter."

                        That being said, I don't think any D2 fan in their right mind believes their team has a realistic shot at competing against major D1 programs for an entire season, or winning a title. They aren't better overall, but for one night - they might just be better. I bet that's a sweet feeling.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Not that in any universe or time would the NCAA allow it, but the thought of schools choosing the level of competition sport by sport rather than as a school in total intrigues me . It's allowed in certain sports and circumstances but not universally. In the PSAC which is wholly D2, some arrangement has been made that several high level wrestling programs are allowed to compete in D1 (76 schools) even though D2 (62 schools) wrestling exists. Why couldn't a D2 MBB program commit to a 5-10 years as a part of an established D1 league and potentially reap the bounty of MARCH MADNESS to help support their remaining D2 sports ? Thoughts??

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Alfred33 View Post
                            It's rare that a D2 school will/can play with a D1 P5 school, but it can happen. Didn't Northern state take Arizona State to overtime last year or the year before? I believe Grand Valley State beat a ranked Michigan State team several years ago. I'm not even sure what/if you guys are arguing about and I don't think I want to go back and read all of it ;), but I'm just letting you know that as a fan of said team, I would never have tried to tell anyone we gave Duke more than they could handle. It's more like, "wow, we only lost by 6.. that's pretty cool". Your assessment falls inline with how I felt the game went. It was still a good showing, especially when it looked as if they were going to lose by 20+ for the majority of the second half. I will say that I'll watch other conference teams play D1 schools if they're on. Kansas has played a couple already, Mizzou plays Cental Missouri tonight, but otherwise, I probably wouldn't care.
                            So the year Augustana won the National Championship (2015-16), Augie beat Iowa at Iowa on a buzzer beater: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNRFfOqOycM

                            Augie held a solid lead throughout the second half (we were up 15 midway through the second half before the Hawkeyes started climbing back), but still pulled it off on the buzzer beater after almost blowing it.

                            In that game, Iowa's starters played more minutes against Augie than they did in several of their Big 10 games that season. Not saying Augie was Big 10 worthy, obviously, but more indicating that it's not like the Hawkeyes could use the "Well our coach played a bunch of bench guys" or "We were experimenting with lineups" excuse, because anyone who watched the game will tell you that wasn't the case. The bottom line is that Iowa and their coach clearly weren't going to be ok with losing that game. I think we just surprised them and then didn't make too many mistakes down the stretch to blow it. And we were pretty good for a D2 team that year.

                            Interestingly, that Iowa team at one point reached #3 in the country in the Top 25 rankings, so they definitely weren't an average or below average D1 that season.

                            That being said, I feel like the NWMSU vs. Duke score this year is equally remarkable, whether Duke was winning comfortably at one point or not. By nature, Duke should beat any D2 team it plays by 20+. I actually expected it to be in the 15-18 point range for this year's Duke/NWMSU game and would've spit out my water if I'd been taking a drink when I saw the 69-63 score. Regardless of the circumstances, that's ridiculous.

                            Anyway, just figured I'd chime in with my favorite experience ever when it comes to D1 vs. D2 exhibition matchups.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MrAugustana View Post

                              So the year Augustana won the National Championship (2015-16), Augie beat Iowa at Iowa on a buzzer beater: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNRFfOqOycM

                              Augie held a solid lead throughout the second half (we were up 15 midway through the second half before the Hawkeyes started climbing back), but still pulled it off on the buzzer beater after almost blowing it.

                              In that game, Iowa's starters played more minutes against Augie than they did in several of their Big 10 games that season. Not saying Augie was Big 10 worthy, obviously, but more indicating that it's not like the Hawkeyes could use the "Well our coach played a bunch of bench guys" or "We were experimenting with lineups" excuse, because anyone who watched the game will tell you that wasn't the case. The bottom line is that Iowa and their coach clearly weren't going to be ok with losing that game. I think we just surprised them and then didn't make too many mistakes down the stretch to blow it. And we were pretty good for a D2 team that year.

                              Interestingly, that Iowa team at one point reached #3 in the country in the Top 25 rankings, so they definitely weren't an average or below average D1 that season.

                              That being said, I feel like the NWMSU vs. Duke score this year is equally remarkable, whether Duke was winning comfortably at one point or not. By nature, Duke should beat any D2 team it plays by 20+. I actually expected it to be in the 15-18 point range for this year's Duke/NWMSU game and would've spit out my water if I'd been taking a drink when I saw the 69-63 score. Regardless of the circumstances, that's ridiculous.

                              Anyway, just figured I'd chime in with my favorite experience ever when it comes to D1 vs. D2 exhibition matchups.
                              Yeah, that's an awesome memory to have with your team! I'd forgotten or maybe I didn't know that had happened, but it is a perfect example that it can. Being born and raised a Mizzou fan, I'm glad they don't play the Bearcats, because as cool as that would be for my Bearcats, it would equally hurt my pride in Mizzou (as if it isn't already hurt enough). UCM had them down at halftime Friday night and that was painful enough. ;)

                              I don't mean to discredit anything the Bearcats did in that game, but like the earlier poster eluded to, the final score wasn't really indicative of game flow or the "headlines". I'm sure when the Bearcats got going down the stretch, there was some puckering going down on Duke bench. If it had been a 6 point game all the way through though, I'm sure Duke would have played it differently. In all honesty, I think I was expecting worse than you, being that when we played them in 2018, we lost by 30. That too was a pretty experienced team, and we returned our leading scorer and player of the year in Justin Pitts. This team, although experienced, lost that guy in Joey Witthus. So yeah, I too think the final score and what these guys were able to do in that game was remarkable and worthy of praise. It'll be interesting to see what Duke becomes this year, so the legend of this game can grow for us Bearcat fans.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
                                h

                                I agree. But who beyond a fan of the team is going to really watch the NWMSU v. Duke exhibition game much less any of the others? A fan of the DII team involved is probably not an impartial reporting source as he really want's to believe that his team is just as good as the D1 so his report on the game is going to be a bit squed. Case in point, the NWMSU v. Duke tilt ended with a 6 point Duke W. Sounds really close and it is presented as such. What is overlooked is the fact that Duke had a lead in the teens for most of the second half leading by as many as 19 points until NWMSU cut the deficit stating at about 2:10 to play by sinking 3 straight 3 pointers. Fan of that team is going to report how NWMSU went toe-to-toe with Duke and ALMOST beat them before losing by 6. He's going to talk about how his team gave Duke more than they could handle and about how Duke was aided by bad calls by the refs. He's not really going to talk about how they trailed by 15 points with 2:30 to play and how they trailed by 19 three times in the second half and including the late run were only within 10 points for four minutes.

                                Hey, I root for a top tier DII and I also want to believe that my team is every bit as good as a top tier D1. My heart tells me that there is just no way that a top tier D1 would be able to shut down my scrappy Hilltopper shooters...no way they could possibly beat our press...no way they would be ready to run hike the "Toppers run. But then I watch a real D1 regular season game and I realize that I'm hoping for something that just is not real. Could we keep it close in an exhibition game? Maybe if we were hitting on all cylinders and the D1 didn't really take the game that seriously. But an exhibiltion game is quite a bitt different than a regular season game.
                                It's a good thing you can read all those minds.

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