FCS schools that should probably be in D2

[BillyGV]

my daughter went to the smallest D1 school in the nation at the time on a volleyball scholarship but by the time she was a senior they had dropped down to D3 (should have dropped to D2) - they gave all students the opportunity to move to another D1 school if they so chose - the NCAA said they could go and play immediately - she stayed, the academics were very good and she just played a sport she loved (yes, she kept her full scholarship thus the team couldn't do playoffs until after her senior year)

[4_tattoos]

I'm sure they'll contend with Clemson for the national title in football and Kentucky in men's hoops ... in reality, they're hoping for a 50-point loss in the first round of the NCAA tournament and Big Dance money. Crazy business model.

Maybe they hope to fill the void left by UCONN if they decide to cut football lol

[tsull]

So ummmm, it looks like New Haven (NE10) is eyeing a move to Division 1.

http://www.courant.com/sports/colleg...7vu-story.html

I'm sure they'll contend with Clemson for the national title in football and Kentucky in men's hoops ... in reality, they're hoping for a 50-point loss in the first round of the NCAA tournament and Big Dance money. Crazy business model.

[Wildcat Khan]

What I don't get is paying tight ends coaches $325,000 a year; and special teams coaches the same or more. I know a knuckle-dragger, dumb as dirt guy, who got a Power 5 outside LB coaching job for $300K about five years ago. Dude can't spell his own name.

Supply greatly outweighs demand on coaching, yet colleges are willing to build Taj Mahal facilities, pay middling coaches millions, and willing to risk debt. College athletics simply doesn't adhere to simple supply & demand economics, I've never gotten it. I guess I understand the payoff of a big time winning coach and a good coordinator or two, but after that is one receiver coach really better than another. I once was watching a Power 5 practice and the receivers coach was standing right there as his group dropped 8 straight passes. He said nothing. He's now a highly paid head coach of a Power 5 school on the west coast. I thought his initial receiver coaching was a joke, seen junior high guys better ... now he's big time. I don't get the business, and I agree with Iron Ore, though the NFL will never give up its free minor league system called college football.

I liked college football just as much if not more decades ago with semi-normal looking size linemen and average paid coaches. If it's going to be Clemson vs. Alabama until the end of time, I'm out.

Too add on, the NFL did what it could to kill the AAF with its rules for even practice squad players and that league tried to be a developmental league for the NFL. I've seen articles Vince McMahan also wants the new XFL to fill that role, so let's see how it goes. I remember though when the NFL did have a developmental league called NFL Europe, helped Jon Kitna break into the NFL by getting playing time and lead Seattle to the playoffs from the dregs where they had been.

[4_tattoos]

So ummmm, it looks like New Haven (NE10) is eyeing a move to Division 1.

http://www.courant.com/sports/colleg...7vu-story.html

[tsull]

They already have it and don't pay for it. It's called Power 5.

What I don't get is paying tight ends coaches $325,000 a year; and special teams coaches the same or more. I know a knuckle-dragger, dumb as dirt guy, who got a Power 5 outside LB coaching job for $300K about five years ago. Dude can't spell his own name.

Supply greatly outweighs demand on coaching, yet colleges are willing to build Taj Mahal facilities, pay middling coaches millions, and willing to risk debt. College athletics simply doesn't adhere to simple supply & demand economics, I've never gotten it. I guess I understand the payoff of a big time winning coach and a good coordinator or two, but after that is one receiver coach really better than another. I once was watching a Power 5 practice and the receivers coach was standing right there as his group dropped 8 straight passes. He said nothing. He's now a highly paid head coach of a Power 5 school on the west coast. I thought his initial receiver coaching was a joke, seen junior high guys better ... now he's big time. I don't get the business, and I agree with Iron Ore, though the NFL will never give up its free minor league system called college football.

I liked college football just as much if not more decades ago with semi-normal looking size linemen and average paid coaches. If it's going to be Clemson vs. Alabama until the end of time, I'm out.

[Herb Street]

I'm of the opinion that the NFL should start a minor league system like the MLB and NBA (sort of) has, and ALL college athletics should be funded much more like the D2 level. The NCAA is a monster and needs to be changed.

They already have it and don't pay for it. It's called Power 5.

[Herb Street]

Yet, I've never seen a "business" that constantly begs for money, calls, pleads, anything to get a dime out of the customer; not so much at D2, but D-1 it's incredible. I don't think D2 is a business or even close to a money-making model, it's an opportunity for students to play a collegiate sport, and it's a way to engage other students and alums in something fun on campus. Where D2 administrators often miss the mark is emulating the D1 model of expensive facilities, "money games", and adding glitz to their programs. Most of these A.D.'s went to A.D. grad school on Power 5 campuses, and sports administration is taught the D1 model. Just be D2/small college ... and yeah, I get the scholarship game and raising money for that, I'm OK on that, just not the glitz. Know who you are.

I also think the moving up to FCS is stupid for almost every school that did it ... does anyone think Central Arkansas will impact D1 athletics in anyway in any sport?

D2 is taxing students every bit as much as the rest...

[UNA_Texan]

The Universities of Minnesota, Nebraska and Wisconsin have been accused of the same thing. With good reason I might add.

Also, the Univ of Ala-Tuscaloosa and the board of regents control, to a great extent, the athletics at UAB and UAH. They often slip in interim administrations loyal to UAT and wreck havoc with the other schools. See UAH struggling to keep Hockey, and not allowed to add football; and UAB dropping and reading football.

[IronOre]

Yet, I've never seen a "business" that constantly begs for money, calls, pleads, anything to get a dime out of the customer; not so much at D2, but D-1 it's incredible. I don't think D2 is a business or even close to a money-making model, it's an opportunity for students to play a collegiate sport, and it's a way to engage other students and alums in something fun on campus. Where D2 administrators often miss the mark is emulating the D1 model of expensive facilities, "money games", and adding glitz to their programs. Most of these A.D.'s went to A.D. grad school on Power 5 campuses, and sports administration is taught the D1 model. Just be D2/small college ... and yeah, I get the scholarship game and raising money for that, I'm OK on that, just not the glitz. Know who you are.

I also think the moving up to FCS is stupid for almost every school that did it ... does anyone think Central Arkansas will impact D1 athletics in anyway in any sport?

I'm of the opinion that the NFL should start a minor league system like the MLB and NBA (sort of) has, and ALL college athletics should be funded much more like the D2 level. The NCAA is a monster and needs to be changed.

[tsull]

College sports is an interesting phenomenon - the people bankrolling the deal don't even watch, while the few people attending and enjoying aren't paying enough for the electricity. What other business concept in the U.S. has such an arrangement?

Yet, I've never seen a "business" that constantly begs for money, calls, pleads, anything to get a dime out of the customer; not so much at D2, but D-1 it's incredible. I don't think D2 is a business or even close to a money-making model, it's an opportunity for students to play a collegiate sport, and it's a way to engage other students and alums in something fun on campus. Where D2 administrators often miss the mark is emulating the D1 model of expensive facilities, "money games", and adding glitz to their programs. Most of these A.D.'s went to A.D. grad school on Power 5 campuses, and sports administration is taught the D1 model. Just be D2/small college ... and yeah, I get the scholarship game and raising money for that, I'm OK on that, just not the glitz. Know who you are.

I also think the moving up to FCS is stupid for almost every school that did it ... does anyone think Central Arkansas will impact D1 athletics in anyway in any sport?

[Herb Street]

I think the NCAA should make it about revenue. Its obvious that Group of 5 schools have been fudging attendance numbers for years. Most are also charging crazy student fees to subsidize FBS football (especially coaching salaries). That's not right - because in most cases the students don't care or don't care enough. I worked at a MAC school and on game day the students tailgated outside their houses...before watching the Ohio State game on TV.

But I don't trust the NCAA - especially at the D1 level. Everything is hedged on the consolidation of power around the Power Five (and Notre Dame as long as they have that NBC contract).

Power 5+ND is essentially AAA ball for the NFL. It is pro sports - the compensation is classified as a scholarship. Everyone below that that offers scholarship athletics is heavily subsidizing athletic programs with student taxes. Most students don't care about the sports. I've gone to a few D2 and even lower D1 basketball games here in Arkansas and you're lucky if there's a couple dozen students. The attendees are mostly parents, friends of parents, and retirees who get in for like 5 bucks.

College sports is an interesting phenomenon - the people bankrolling the deal don't even watch, while the few people attending and enjoying aren't paying enough for the electricity. What other business concept in the U.S. has such an arrangement?

[Fightingscot82]

Very generally speaking, the hierarchy goes like this:

Power 5 FBS is flagship state universities (non-directional) and flagship mainline Christian schools (Baylor, Wake, Notre Dame, BC, etc.)
Non Power 5 FBS is second tier, large, directional state universities that are not flagship along with some large religious schools (Liberty, BYU, TCU, SMU, etc.)
FCS is larger state universities and secondary mainline Christian schools (Abilene Christian, Incarnate Word, Presbyterian, etc.)
D2 is mostly smaller state universities, with secondary mainline Christian and other private schools
D3 is mostly small, private schools
NAIA is a mix of quite small public and private schools

There are exceptions to any rule. There are quite large state universities in D2 (Grand Valley), and quite small private universities in FBS (Rice).

With public schools, size tends to dictate the division, though not always. With private schools, most are either D1 or D3. Most fit comfortably in D3 for several reasons:

1. A number of the privates have a ton of academic panache, and students are very willing to attend there without an athletic scholarship. Many athletically-talented kids choose the private school for the academic prestige and the degree that follows, and while the athletics piece is nice, but it is purely secondary. MIT, Trinity, Amherst, Johns-Hopkins, Emory, etc.

2. The SAT/ACT entrance exam requirements of many of the privates means most students are getting substantial academic scholarship money anyway. The average college athlete isn't going to sniff the front gate of MIT, and MIT isn't in any mood to bend the rules for someone who can't spell cat. Most P5 schools will substantially compromise their standard admissions standards to get a star athlete on the field.

The idea that D3 schools are low budget is a false one, too. In fact, some of those schools are among the most flu$h in the nation. MIT has an endowment of over $20 billion. Johns-Hopkins almost $4 billion, Emory $7 billion, Amherst $2 billion, etc. In terms of dollars, a lot of the D3 schools could buy and sell a D1 school without a thought.

I think the NCAA should make it about revenue. Its obvious that Group of 5 schools have been fudging attendance numbers for years. Most are also charging crazy student fees to subsidize FBS football (especially coaching salaries). That's not right - because in most cases the students don't care or don't care enough. I worked at a MAC school and on game day the students tailgated outside their houses...before watching the Ohio State game on TV.

But I don't trust the NCAA - especially at the D1 level. Everything is hedged on the consolidation of power around the Power Five (and Notre Dame as long as they have that NBC contract).

[GrifFan]

Chicago State has long had one of the worst men's basketball programs in Division I (probably 20-25 years). Chicago has long been a college basketball wasteland, particularly since Ray Meyer retired at DePaul in 1984, but even within the Chicagoland area the Chicago State program is irrelevant (from what I've read) relative to Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola-Chicago, and Illinois-Chicago.

If Chicago State does drop out of Division I, they wouldn't be the first Chicago area college/university to do so; Northeastern Illinois dropped all sports in the late 1990s after playing in Division I for 10 years.

Sister Jean will cut you.

[Fightingscot82]

Chicago State (no football), school is on the verge of closing, yet they hang onto D-1 athletics in the Western Athletic Conference. Surely, there's a nearby D2 conference they could play in. They're 500-person hoop crowds would be no more indifferent to the change.

Northern Colorado in the Big Sky, Sac State and their bad football program and 1,200-seat hoops gym, and no attendance in either program.

To be honest, about half of the 355 men's D-1 hoop programs should be D2. If you draw 500 or so a game in hoops, you need to quit chasing the Dukes and Kentuckys of the world ... and I don't care about you once catching lightning in a bottle in a post-season tournament and losing by 50 in the first round of the NCAA tourney as a 16 seed. You don't belong.

Heck there are D-1 conferences closer than the WAC. Check out that footprint.