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  • #76
    Originally posted by Turbonium View Post
    Somalia has been in various stages of civil war since 1986, so this also is a really great comparison.

    https://www.wbtv.com/2020/06/13/some...y-train-years/
    https://polis.osce.org/country-profiles/norway

    Why not look at training to start though? I wonder what quality of police officer we would get if we expected them to train for 3 years rather than 16 weeks? I had to train about 16 weeks for my current job and it is nowhere near as potentially life threatening for myself or others if I make a mistake. I have never "wore the uniform" so maybe this is just stupid though...
    I think a good place to start would be to establish nation wide standards for police training. As it stands right now, standards are state by state and vary wildly. And this goes for LE leadership and management also. Shocking that in many places, there is no requirement for additional training and certification for officers/deputy sheriffs moving into leadership/supervision positions.

    There is also a LOT ov variation on officer starting pay. As with almost every profession, if you pay lower for people coming in, you are going to get a lower quality of people coming through the front door.!
    Last edited by boatcapt; 08-24-2020, 02:08 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

      I think a good place to start would be to establish nation wide standards for police training. As it stands right now, standards are state by state and vary wildly. And this goes for LE leadership and management also. Shocking that in many places, there is no requirement for additional training and certification for officers/deputy sheriffs moving into leadership/supervision positions.

      There is also a LOT ov variation on officer starting pay. As with almost every profession, if you pay lower for people coming in, you are going to get a lower quality of people coming through the front door.!
      I'm sure no one can/will argue this as we see yet another story of a police officer shooting an unarmed individual in the back numerous times.

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      • #78

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        • #79
          I'm in favor of increasing police officer's pay (those without any history of controversial confrontations) to at least 25% higher than the average of local teachers, especially those at under performing schools.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post
            I've been a fan of the idea to require all incoming LEOs to have a Bachelor's Degree, possibly even before police training. At the very least it would weed out some unscrupulous individuals.
            How would a college degree weed out "unscrupulous individuals??"

            But according to the Police Foundation 56% of police officers in the US have college degrees.

            Average starting salary for a police officer is $31,000...That's $14.90/hr. For comparison, a first year lawyer in a firm averages $135,000.
            Last edited by boatcapt; 08-24-2020, 08:49 PM.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Eagle74 View Post
              I'm in favor of increasing police officer's pay (those without any history of controversial confrontations) to at least 25% higher than the average of local teachers, especially those at under performing schools.
              Average first year school teacher salary, according to the NEA is $39K.

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              • #82
                https://twitter.com/shaunking/status...358714886?s=20

                We are calling for a complete dismantling of American policing.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
                  How would a college degree weed out "unscrupulous individuals??"

                  But according to the Police Foundation 56% of police officers in the US have college degrees.

                  Average starting salary for a police officer is $31,000...That's $14.90/hr. For comparison, a first year lawyer in a firm averages $135,000.
                  Why is having cops with more education a bad thing, first of all?

                  To answer your question, I knew a handful of kids that I wouldn't trust to watch my goldfish let alone my life and safety who became a cop simply because they didn't have to go to college. There are plenty of well-paying jobs that don't require a college degree or carrying a lethal weapon - but they chose the one that involves carrying a lethal weapon.

                  Also, is that 56% a Bachelor's Degree minimum or an Associate's Degree minimum? 56% is barely a majority, so there's a lot of room for improvement. Those two things are not the same. It would also be a good way to provide things like mental health training.

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                  • #84
                    This is a better example. While Shaun King is nuts, he does have a very solid social media following.

                    He still doesn't control policy decisions and his influence is largely tied to Twitter - so there's not a whole lot to worry about here.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Eagle74 View Post
                      I'm in favor of increasing police officer's pay (those without any history of controversial confrontations) to at least 25% higher than the average of local teachers, especially those at under performing schools.
                      I have no problem with increasing their pay as long as we also increase their accountability (and training). Anyone else in a position of power is held to a higher standard, our troops in warzones have stricter ROE, cops here get away with murder and are called heroes. Imagine what they got away with prior to body cams and civilians with cell phone cameras, yikes.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Turbonium View Post

                        I have no problem with increasing their pay as long as we also increase their accountability (and training). Anyone else in a position of power is held to a higher standard, our troops in warzones have stricter ROE, cops here get away with murder and are called heroes. Imagine what they got away with prior to body cams and civilians with cell phone cameras, yikes.
                        It really was incredible the Rodney King incident was captured on video, IMO. There was very little surveillance back in those days. Someone with a camera happened to be in the right place at the right time, otherwise I can guarantee we never would have heard of the incident.

                        Not only that, but the fact it was circulated before social media too.

                        I'm a fan of the police, but somehow I'm un-American because I want them to be better at what my tax dollars pay them to do. Odd.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

                          It really was incredible the Rodney King incident was captured on video, IMO. There was very little surveillance back in those days. Someone with a camera happened to be in the right place at the right time, otherwise I can guarantee we never would have heard of the incident.

                          Not only that, but the fact it was circulated before social media too.

                          I'm a fan of the police, but somehow I'm un-American because I want them to be better at what my tax dollars pay them to do. Odd.
                          No, you are not un-American for wanting cops to be better. But that doesn't seem to be the narrative that is being pushed by many. Decreasing funding by 1/3+ will not make the police better. If anything it will make things worse by increasing the stress and danger for the remaining officers. Overworked, over stressed officers with no back-up increases the chances they will make mistakes.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Eagle74 View Post
                            Recent history show examples in countries where their police force were either defunded, scaled back enforcement, or both. These decisions were made in Somolia and Zimbabwe. Both are now in ruins with a horrible quality of life with rampant violent crime, as compared to what they were prior. Even with a few changes that may be needed to be made, I wonder what percentage of Americans really want to live with the hell those people now have to deal with 24 hours a day?
                            I would venture to guess that the percentage of Americans that truley want to defund the police is pretty small BUUUUTTTT the percentage that want police to do a better job is high. Unfortuanatly, the ones that want to defund have bigger mouths, more twitter followers and bigger podcast audiences so they control the narrative. As the mayor of Portland learned, giving an angry mob the freedom to protest and burn is all well and good...until they show up outside YOUR door!!!

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                              No, you are not un-American for wanting cops to be better. But that doesn't seem to be the narrative that is being pushed by many. Decreasing funding by 1/3+ will not make the police better. If anything it will make things worse by increasing the stress and danger for the remaining officers. Overworked, over stressed officers with no back-up increases the chances they will make mistakes.
                              Yet, oddly enough many think the solution to America's educational problems is to defund underperforming schools, including DeVos who wants to be able to divert public money to private schools. I look at it as if you divert some funds from police to education, mental health, food banks, etc. then there is less need for police, especially in certain situations where they are called and they are not the best to handle the situation. That's not their fault. But if we can address the underlying issues rather than the symptoms themselves then there may be need for less police presence in the future. However, there will always be a need for police in some manner.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                                No, you are not un-American for wanting cops to be better. But that doesn't seem to be the narrative that is being pushed by many. Decreasing funding by 1/3+ will not make the police better. If anything it will make things worse by increasing the stress and danger for the remaining officers. Overworked, over stressed officers with no back-up increases the chances they will make mistakes.
                                What if the money is used to actually help those who are in need of it which can greatly reduce the need for police to respond to all sorts of calls? Our mental health care in this country, for instance, is a complete joke. The homeless problem is going to continue to rise until liveable wages are offered, crime or at least the hours the police spend on dealing with the homeless is exponential. I realize the job is tough, but there are ways to make it easier. Those ways might involve using some funding to actually GASP help our citizens though. I don't understand how the party which constantly pulls the God card (referring to the Christian god) does the opposite of what their supposed religious text teaches. We aren't Somalia, we are supposedly the greatest country in history, surely we can drastically improve the quality of life for those who reside here. Police and civilians alike.

                                Do you remember the Toronto van attacker? He was an incel and mad at the world, rented a van, ran over a bunch of people. A lone cop pulls up once he has parked the van and has a weapon drawn, the guy reaches in his pocket and pulls his hand out quickly and "aims" it at the officer, the cop doesn't fire as he doesn't see a weapon. How many rounds would that guy have had in him in the US? My guess would be the number that the service weapon held. Should we not strive to have our police be that well trained and calm in what would be one of the most stressful situations of one's life? Instead we watch the news as an unarmed individual gets shot in the back 7 times in broad daylight, with children in the car mind you. This wasn't a mistake, it was attempted murder. Something needs to change, what that something is I'm not sure anyone 100% knows, but to allow the status quo to continue is asinine and dangerous.

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