What is the state of Division 2 athletics?

[Herb Street]

I haven't kept up with D2 athletics in a very long time. But one particular school that I am familiar with, it seems that the interest and attendance were significantly greater 20-30 years ago, while their success today in various sports is significantly greater than it was back then. So something doesn't add up.

What say you guys?

One factor is that the local newspaper, a relic of a bygone era, is no longer part of the cheerleading squad for the local D2 teams. Readership here used to be substantial. It's where you went for news, entertainment, and sports. Now, it's local TV news or the internet. So I wonder if D2 schools are suffering from a general lack of exposure. D1s - even FCS - have the luxury of national TV exposure, and at worst, ESPN+. That helps.

What is the state of D2 in your opinion? Healthy as ever? Endangered species? Marching toward extinction?

Thanks in advance for the discussion by all.

[Brandon]

Same as it ever was.

The same conversations are being had today at every level that were being had 20 years ago at every level.

[Predatory Primates]

The lack of exposure has hurt a lot of D2 teams for sure, but community engagement is possible without the local newspaper.

Local radio, a strong Twitter and insta presence, local TV, and the school staying super involved with the community are all important.


it's the same problem D2 has always had, but the answers are a little different.

[Herb Street]

Great discussion. Thanks everyone. I'll check back in 2043 and see how things are then.

[tsull]

The lack of exposure has hurt a lot of D2 teams for sure, but community engagement is possible without the local newspaper.

Local radio, a strong Twitter and insta presence, local TV, and the school staying super involved with the community are all important.


it's the same problem D2 has always had, but the answers are a little different.

I think the local community is the key. My alma mater, Western Oregon, is surrounded by Oregon State 20 miles south, and a bunch of D3's east and north, some NAIA's. None of the small colleges in the area thrive in fan following or media coverage, maybe Linfield football a bit because they've had 60 straight winning seasons. The problem with many small colleges in the West is administrative apathy. They do nothing to market their teams, surrendering to the almighty D1 down the road. In Idaho, Northwest Nazarene (no football) which is 20 miles from Boise State, averaged 1,000 a game in hoops one year with hardly any community outreach. A decent attendance for D2, wonder what they could do if they tried. Eight miles from them is the College of Idaho, which just won the men's NAIA national title in men's basketball.They average more than 2K a game, but their admin is involved.

D2 is like high school with better talent: You follow your community team. D1 attracts fans from all over, out of state, etc. D2 should focus on their local community. I go back to games at Western Oregon and see nothing in town that advertises the school's athletic programs. Very odd approach expecting people to just show up.

[Herb Street]

I think the local community is the key. My alma mater, Western Oregon, is surrounded by Oregon State 20 miles south, and a bunch of D3's east and north, some NAIA's. None of the small colleges in the area thrive in fan following or media coverage, maybe Linfield football a bit because they've had 60 straight winning seasons. The problem with many small colleges in the West is administrative apathy. They do nothing to market their teams, surrendering to the almighty D1 down the road. In Idaho, Northwest Nazarene (no football) which is 20 miles from Boise State, averaged 1,000 a game in hoops one year with hardly any community outreach. A decent attendance for D2, wonder what they could do if they tried. Eight miles from them is the College of Idaho, which just won the men's NAIA national title in men's basketball.They average more than 2K a game, but their admin is involved.

D2 is like high school with better talent: You follow your community team. D1 attracts fans from all over, out of state, etc. D2 should focus on their local community. I go back to games at Western Oregon and see nothing in town that advertises the school's athletic programs. Very odd approach expecting people to just show up.

Do you see student support at the games? That's a difference that I notice. If I attend a Power 5 game with say 50,000 people there, prehaps 10K of that is students in a fairly wide (and vocal) swath of the stadium. What percentage of a D2 basketball or football game attendance are students these days? Or is it more of an entertainment deal for retired people and those very close to the school in some way? (employed, etc.).

In Power 5, it seems that media, corporate, and season tickets are subsidizing the production while the students get to enjoy it, while in D2, it seems the students are subsidizing the production while mainly non-students enjoy it.

[AlexTheHAMMER]

Do you see student support at the games? That's a difference that I notice. If I attend a Power 5 game with say 50,000 people there, prehaps 10K of that is students in a fairly wide (and vocal) swath of the stadium. What percentage of a D2 basketball or football game attendance are students these days? Or is it more of an entertainment deal for retired people and those very close to the school in some way? (employed, etc.)

I agree. Watching the UNK games, the student section is almost non-existent. Many students choose to just sit with the fans. The lower bowl is full on both sides, and the upper bowl at the HSC is just a faint paint splattering of people on the non-bench side when there isn't a theme night that encourages families to attend (discounted tickets, bounce house on the mezzanine, etc.)

Fort Hays has a strong student section at every game (actually sitting in the student section). They also traveled well to Kearney for football and basketball (although UNK and Fort Hays are each other's closest D2 opponents, but also heated rivals.)

[Herb Street]

It seems that sports contests in general have shifted decidedly toward mega-entertainment events, with the actual contest being just part of the spectacle. Go to any NBA, MLB, and P5 contest and you see that. Tons of dancing, contests, elaborate - and extreme - audio/visual, special lighting effects, indoor fireworks, celebrity attendance and recognition, etc. If it's just a contest, seems like the interest level plummets. Fans today also seem to have an expectation of polish and professionalism. I assume because that is what they are delivered constantly from large events and things on their devices. Obviously small colleges don't have $ millions per year to pump into game production. Probably lucky to get a few volunteers to keep stats and snaps some photos.

[Buffalo/Islander Alum]

I haven't kept up with D2 athletics in a very long time. But one particular school that I am familiar with, it seems that the interest and attendance were significantly greater 20-30 years ago, while their success today in various sports is significantly greater than it was back then. So something doesn't add up.

What say you guys?

One factor is that the local newspaper, a relic of a bygone era, is no longer part of the cheerleading squad for the local D2 teams. Readership here used to be substantial. It's where you went for news, entertainment, and sports. Now, it's local TV news or the internet. So I wonder if D2 schools are suffering from a general lack of exposure. D1s - even FCS - have the luxury of national TV exposure, and at worst, ESPN+. That helps.

What is the state of D2 in your opinion? Healthy as ever? Endangered species? Marching toward extinction?

Thanks in advance for the discussion by all.

The school you are referencing is also as easy as the current state of the program.

Peeps from pre 2005 was like the scene from major league "Here is Canyon? WT still has a football team?"

2005 make the playoffs out of no where and fill the stadium the next several years.

2014-present the team goes down the toilet and with it attendance/fan interest.

Even a brand new on-campus stadium will not draw the fans if the team sucks and the school president treats football like an basket weaving elective.

In my experience it takes several years again to get sustained interest after sucking for a couple of admission classes (every 4 years).

[Herb Street]

The school you are referencing is also as easy as the current state of the program.

Peeps from pre 2005 was like the scene from major league "Here is Canyon? WT still has a football team?"

2005 make the playoffs out of no where and fill the stadium the next several years.

2014-present the team goes down the toilet and with it attendance/fan interest.

Even a brand new on-campus stadium will not draw the fans if the team sucks and the school president treats football like an basket weaving elective.

In my experience it takes several years again to get sustained interest after sucking for a couple of admission classes (every 4 years).

I'm actually not referencing WT, but that's a good take nonetheless.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Do you see student support at the games? That's a difference that I notice. If I attend a Power 5 game with say 50,000 people there, prehaps 10K of that is students in a fairly wide (and vocal) swath of the stadium. What percentage of a D2 basketball or football game attendance are students these days? Or is it more of an entertainment deal for retired people and those very close to the school in some way? (employed, etc.).

In Power 5, it seems that media, corporate, and season tickets are subsidizing the production while the students get to enjoy it, while in D2, it seems the students are subsidizing the production while mainly non-students enjoy it.

Speaking just in reference to the PSAC (Pennsylvania), we have a handful of schools that draw well (and, by 'well' I obviously mean by D2 standards).

In football, Slippery Rock probably averages around 6,500/game (and can get near 10,000 for IUP's bi-yearly visit). The Rock has done a fantastic job making their game days actual events.

The next tier down in football attendance (IUP, Shepherd, etc.) can average (in a good year) in the 4,500 to 5,500 range. The rest, however, average around 500 to 1,500. Because this isn't 'D1' and we don't have crazy, die-hard fans, PSAC football attendance falls off a cliff as the weather turns bad.

In men's basketball, our numbers get a bit out of whack because the PASSHE has a 7-week break between semesters (i.e. no students on campus for 7 weeks in the heart of basketball season). Attendance flops during this time. IUP leads the conference every year -- typically with a season average of about 2,200 (but averages more than 3,200 with students on campus). East Stroudsburg is usually second in attendance and averages around 1,500 or 1,600. The rest (and we have a huge conference) all average below 800 -- many average below 300.

Western Pennsylvania (home of the PSAC West) has major competition from Penn State, Pitt and West Virginia (in addition to three FCS programs). Well, not really competition. Those three dominate the media landscape.

At least in the case of Indiana, Pa., both programs have a predominately 'townie' following. There's student spirt some years. Other years not so much. Most of our 18 campuses are in very remote, small towns. There are some exceptions (Mercyhurst and Gannon are in Erie, and West Chester is in Philadelphia). In most of the towns, media coverage is non-existent.

I go to most of IUP's away games in football and basketball. I've been to road gyms with 150 people at the game and 135 of them are with the visiting team. I've been to road football games at places like Clarion with 'maybe' 200 people in the stadium.

The clear pecking order in PA is:

1. NFL (Steelers and Eagles), NHL & MLB
2. D1 (Pitt, PSU, WVU)
3. High School
Huge Gap
4. Everything else.

[tsull]

It seems that sports contests in general have shifted decidedly toward mega-entertainment events, with the actual contest being just part of the spectacle. Go to any NBA, MLB, and P5 contest and you see that. Tons of dancing, contests, elaborate - and extreme - audio/visual, special lighting effects, indoor fireworks, celebrity attendance and recognition, etc. If it's just a contest, seems like the interest level plummets. Fans today also seem to have an expectation of polish and professionalism. I assume because that is what they are delivered constantly from large events and things on their devices. Obviously small colleges don't have $ millions per year to pump into game production. Probably lucky to get a few volunteers to keep stats and snaps some photos.

This is true, what's funny is whenever I go to a Pac-12 or small college game, the piped in music just sucks the life out of the crowd. I'm not just talking the older folks/season ticket holders, students, too. But when the marching band cranks it up everyone gets into it. It's like clockwork. Admin of course doesn't pay attention to this.

Central Washington has a killer marching band and played the best National Anthem I've ever heard at a sporting event. Last time I went to a game there the school went about 50-50 on piped in music in relation to the band. HUGE mistake. They have a great music program, musicians and a band, don't hide them.

I've been to two games at Notre Dame in South Bend. First time some 20 years ago, natural turf, no replay screen, incredible band -- atmosphere was incredible. (They lost to Nebraska in OT.) Second game I went to a few years ago was vs. Navy, the first non-sellout in years. ND had sold out with field turf, big screen (which you have to do today) and piped in music. The crowd was DEAD by ND standards. The highlight of course was Navy and ND signing both fight songs after the game (a long standing tradition) played by the ND band.

Universities out-think things and rarely see what's going on around them.

[Buffan78]

WT doing well is D2 sports except football, I think they could do well moving up to the WAC or Southland if they got a new President.. SIU got rid of this guy for things he said, enrollment has come down the last 3 yrs and he is not big on sports.. D2 at WT is over shadowed by TT , Im bias I went to WT in the Div 1 years.

[Herb Street]

This is true, what's funny is whenever I go to a Pac-12 or small college game, the piped in music just sucks the life out of the crowd. I'm not just talking the older folks/season ticket holders, students, too. But when the marching band cranks it up everyone gets into it. It's like clockwork. Admin of course doesn't pay attention to this.

Central Washington has a killer marching band and played the best National Anthem I've ever heard at a sporting event. Last time I went to a game there the school went about 50-50 on piped in music in relation to the band. HUGE mistake. They have a great music program, musicians and a band, don't hide them.

I've been to two games at Notre Dame in South Bend. First time some 20 years ago, natural turf, no replay screen, incredible band -- atmosphere was incredible. (They lost to Nebraska in OT.) Second game I went to a few years ago was vs. Navy, the first non-sellout in years. ND had sold out with field turf, big screen (which you have to do today) and piped in music. The crowd was DEAD by ND standards. The highlight of course was Navy and ND signing both fight songs after the game (a long standing tradition) played by the ND band.

Universities out-think things and rarely see what's going on around them.

So fans don't like all of the extra stuff? The music, contests, dancing, big screens, etc.

[AlexTheHAMMER]

So fans don't like all of the extra stuff? The music, contests, dancing, big screens, etc.

I think it's more finding a healthy balance of the old-fashioned tried and the crowd engagement methods with the new stuff