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Originally posted by IUP24
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CHIP72 - I sincerely apologize. It was my comment that started this whole debacle. I love this thread that you post annually. I think it's fun for everyone to share their list of games. I never intended for an innocent comment about wishing a trio of regional rivals still played annually to create the inevitable Pitt football attendance talk.
What are we actually talking about? Google "Average College Football Attendance." The immediate number (from 2019) that pops up is 41,856. Not 50,000, 60,000, or 107k strong.
People always seem to say things like this about attendance, but mostly only ever related to Pitt? Who cares how many people show up to the games? Why is this a thing?
Their student section sells out, they have a core group of fans who attend every weekend (like every school), and over the last few seasons they've had some terrific atmospheres for games. Does one marquee game inflate attendance numbers? Sure. But it does everywhere. That's not limited to just Pitt. That's legitimately every school in the country outside of the token few who draw massive numbers each weekend regardless of the opponent. But those schools are the exception, not the norm. You all know that.
The reality is Pitt draws much like everyone else in college football, but they just do it in a stadium that's significantly too large for the size of the school and fanbase. Spare me the "Oh but they are inflating attendance numbers" garbage. They are right in line with most schools, and that's quite okay. I'm not sure why people fail to see that. And I'm not sure why people care about it so much to always bring it up. When Pitt won the national championship, they didn't sell out Pitt Stadium which held under 50,000 people. WVU doesn't sell out every game. They are the state university of West Virginia, and they play in a 60,000 seat stadium. Yet they poke fun at Pitt. I'm not sure why Pitt's draw is so fascinating. People in Texas couldn't care less about the attendance at Baylor or TCU. Those schools just play in small stadiums, so it looks better. Baylor or TCU likely wouldn't sell out Acrisure Stadium every week, or to use the comparison in Texas, Reliant Stadium or Jerry World.
Relatively speaking, Pitt is a smallish D1 school. They aren't the "state" university of Pennsylvania. They have a smaller student body and alumni base than those large institutions.
The University of Cincinnati could be seen as having a more successful football program than Pitt over the last 15 years. They average 36,000 a game. They have a student body that has 15,000 to 17,000 more students than Pitt (depending on where you look). Cincinatti, Pittsburgh, and their surrounding areas are comparable in terms of population. Their situations are comparable (neither is the marquee program in their state, with both having experienced a lot of recent success). If Cincy moved into Paycor Stadium tomorrow, they wouldn't draw 70,000 people a game. If Ohio State came to town, absolutely. But when Iowa state visits, they'll get 45,000 if that. Would people talk about the empty green seats and the bogus attendance numbers? No. Nobody would blink an eye. Nobody would care. And everyone would just keep playing football. I just don't get it. Nobody else in the country obsesses over the attendance at a particular school quite like what happens in the Western PA area. The factors that you see with Penn State are unique. Only about 8-12 schools in the country are comparable (combination of stadium size, alumni base, student body, etc.). Compare Pitt fairly. To Cincinati. To Georgia Tech. To Miami. To Boston College. I'm only picking schools in metropolitan/urban areas, but you get the point.
College Football Attendance Rankings: 2023 CFN Five-Year Program Analysis - College Football News | College Football Predictions, Analysis and Updates
The link there is pretty informative in the grand scheme of things. It provides a rolling 5-year picture of attendance in college football from 2018-2022. It includes the COVID season, but the results show that those impacts pretty much were felt in these rankings equally. It also shows the % capacity filled numbers along with many other unique metrics. One game against Penn State (2018) and WVU (2022) didn't rank Pitt where they were ranked (44). From 40-50, this is the order:
Utah, Baylor, North Carolina, Arizona State, Pitt, Colorado, UCLA, TCU, Indiana, UCF, Minnesota - Objectively, in the middle of schools like that is where Pitt should be viewed. Is that fair? I never expect them to sell out regularly. I don't expect them to put 60,000 in regularly either. For what it's worth, Cincy ranks 59 on that list, and they averaged 38,000 in 2022 coming off a CFP berth while averaging 76% of their stadium's capacity.
The initial comment that got this whole thing going was about Pitt, Penn State, and WVU "needing" each other. That morphed into a discussion about Pitt tarping off the upper deck. In no world should that ever happen. And I don't say those three schools should play because of a freaking attendance boost for Pitt. I say that because that's what college football, at it's core, is supposed to be about. I know the genie has long left the bottle on that, but everybody wanting to take a pot shot at Pitt for what they draw knows that too. Not everything has to be about Pitt football's attendance.
What are we actually talking about? Google "Average College Football Attendance." The immediate number (from 2019) that pops up is 41,856. Not 50,000, 60,000, or 107k strong.
People always seem to say things like this about attendance, but mostly only ever related to Pitt? Who cares how many people show up to the games? Why is this a thing?
Their student section sells out, they have a core group of fans who attend every weekend (like every school), and over the last few seasons they've had some terrific atmospheres for games. Does one marquee game inflate attendance numbers? Sure. But it does everywhere. That's not limited to just Pitt. That's legitimately every school in the country outside of the token few who draw massive numbers each weekend regardless of the opponent. But those schools are the exception, not the norm. You all know that.
The reality is Pitt draws much like everyone else in college football, but they just do it in a stadium that's significantly too large for the size of the school and fanbase. Spare me the "Oh but they are inflating attendance numbers" garbage. They are right in line with most schools, and that's quite okay. I'm not sure why people fail to see that. And I'm not sure why people care about it so much to always bring it up. When Pitt won the national championship, they didn't sell out Pitt Stadium which held under 50,000 people. WVU doesn't sell out every game. They are the state university of West Virginia, and they play in a 60,000 seat stadium. Yet they poke fun at Pitt. I'm not sure why Pitt's draw is so fascinating. People in Texas couldn't care less about the attendance at Baylor or TCU. Those schools just play in small stadiums, so it looks better. Baylor or TCU likely wouldn't sell out Acrisure Stadium every week, or to use the comparison in Texas, Reliant Stadium or Jerry World.
Relatively speaking, Pitt is a smallish D1 school. They aren't the "state" university of Pennsylvania. They have a smaller student body and alumni base than those large institutions.
The University of Cincinnati could be seen as having a more successful football program than Pitt over the last 15 years. They average 36,000 a game. They have a student body that has 15,000 to 17,000 more students than Pitt (depending on where you look). Cincinatti, Pittsburgh, and their surrounding areas are comparable in terms of population. Their situations are comparable (neither is the marquee program in their state, with both having experienced a lot of recent success). If Cincy moved into Paycor Stadium tomorrow, they wouldn't draw 70,000 people a game. If Ohio State came to town, absolutely. But when Iowa state visits, they'll get 45,000 if that. Would people talk about the empty green seats and the bogus attendance numbers? No. Nobody would blink an eye. Nobody would care. And everyone would just keep playing football. I just don't get it. Nobody else in the country obsesses over the attendance at a particular school quite like what happens in the Western PA area. The factors that you see with Penn State are unique. Only about 8-12 schools in the country are comparable (combination of stadium size, alumni base, student body, etc.). Compare Pitt fairly. To Cincinati. To Georgia Tech. To Miami. To Boston College. I'm only picking schools in metropolitan/urban areas, but you get the point.
College Football Attendance Rankings: 2023 CFN Five-Year Program Analysis - College Football News | College Football Predictions, Analysis and Updates
The link there is pretty informative in the grand scheme of things. It provides a rolling 5-year picture of attendance in college football from 2018-2022. It includes the COVID season, but the results show that those impacts pretty much were felt in these rankings equally. It also shows the % capacity filled numbers along with many other unique metrics. One game against Penn State (2018) and WVU (2022) didn't rank Pitt where they were ranked (44). From 40-50, this is the order:
Utah, Baylor, North Carolina, Arizona State, Pitt, Colorado, UCLA, TCU, Indiana, UCF, Minnesota - Objectively, in the middle of schools like that is where Pitt should be viewed. Is that fair? I never expect them to sell out regularly. I don't expect them to put 60,000 in regularly either. For what it's worth, Cincy ranks 59 on that list, and they averaged 38,000 in 2022 coming off a CFP berth while averaging 76% of their stadium's capacity.
The initial comment that got this whole thing going was about Pitt, Penn State, and WVU "needing" each other. That morphed into a discussion about Pitt tarping off the upper deck. In no world should that ever happen. And I don't say those three schools should play because of a freaking attendance boost for Pitt. I say that because that's what college football, at it's core, is supposed to be about. I know the genie has long left the bottle on that, but everybody wanting to take a pot shot at Pitt for what they draw knows that too. Not everything has to be about Pitt football's attendance.
Saying (your words) WVU, Pitt, and PSU need each other (in a thread with a majority of people with ties to PA or WV) is going to start a conversation.
I agree it's fun for the fan bases, but PSU doesn't need either Pitt or WVU. Penn State is on a different level, program-wise -- on the field and in national brand.
I know living here my whole life the Pitt people talk about PSU a whole hell of a lot more than the PSU people talk about Pitt.
It was pretty clear Pitt wanted to keep the PSU series going but PSU wasn't interested.
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