West Liberty Hilltopper Basketball

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Said by a fan of a team with four players 6'8", 220 pounds plus!!

Shocking to point out that a player like IUP's Daddy Ugbede... .700 from the field, over .700 from free throw line and hit the boards like no body's business...but didn't shoot the 3 (0 for 0 in his IUP career!) so WLU would have ZERO interest in even having him on their roster!!

Daddy Ugbede was an incredibly skilled offensive player. Biggest hands I've ever seen. He was so powerful and agile ... just about impossible to guard. His spin moves would draw so many fouls ... and he was an incredible FT shooter for a post player.

His knock was staying on the floor. Joe had to really watch how he played him because of his constant foul trouble. If they could have got 34 mpg out of him his stats would have been insane. He had a great career here.

[Columbuseer]

Hillsdale replay is worth watching again. Very informative if one is interested in nuances of playing big teams.They had 3 6-8 mobile guys who averaged 29, 29 and 32 mins per game. 6-8 Cartier was consensus all american and was gmac male athlete of the year across all sports. Played old school inside game but also had 3 pt shooters. Very well coached. Could not ask for a sterner inside test for wlu.
The points per possession shows effectiveness of wlu defense, holding them to 0.83 ppp.



Season. Versus wlu

fg% 51% 43%
3fg% 36% 25%
ft% 70% 39%
PPP 1.14 0.83

[boatcapt]

The hillsdale game may be indicative of how wlu plays against tall half court teams. 6-8 Brown had to guard Patrick outside, who scored layups at will. 80% FT shooters were missing due to fatigue.

Well...I would note that Tavon Brown was a 50% shooter who averaged 7 PPG over the course of the season at Hillsdale. Vs WLU he shot 50% and scored 5 points. For his part Pat Robinson was a 53% shooter who averaged 20 PPG on the season. This game he shot 44% from the field and scored 18 points. Except for Robinson's shooting %, seems like both players played to their season average.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Never seriously ever said I wanted a 6'8", 270 guy just as I never said I wanted WLU to scrap their current style in favor of a low post, back to the basket offense. What I did say is that WLU needs to develop a secondary offense that is more inside focused for those times when our outside game is either A. not clicking or B. our opponent is capable of denying us our outside shots. Also, in the defensive end it seems logical to have a big capable of standing up to bigs that are dominating inside (i.e. Mercyhurst, Ship, etc). As I said, regular season, it's not often a concern...but as WLU progresses further in the NCAA tourney, the prospect of facing a big that is capable of defeating what we throw at him become greater and greater.

Worth noting, Winston Salem (our first opponent) has 6'9", 250 pound Rasheen Merlin, 6'8", 240 Cyille Diop and 6'7", 205 Shamon Jackson to throw at our collections of bigs...Next night we face an ESU team that could throw 6'10", 240 pound Ryan Smith, 6'8", 240 Zach Sabol and 6'6", 255 Cam Byers at us. WLU will defend these players with 6'7", 195 Elija Watson, 6'6", 205 Ben Sarson and 6'5", 205 Marlon Moore. Height and weight do not make a good player and these guys may be nothing more but given our size disparity, we better hope we hit the ground running and shoot at least .450+ from 3 in both games.

Ryan Smith passed away.

[Columbuseer]

The hillsdale game may be indicative of how wlu plays against tall half court teams. 6-8 Brown had to guard Patrick outside, who scored layups at will. 80% FT shooters were missing due to fatigue.

[Columbuseer]

Never seriously ever said I wanted a 6'8", 270 guy just as I never said I wanted WLU to scrap their current style in favor of a low post, back to the basket offense. What I did say is that WLU needs to develop a secondary offense that is more inside focused for those times when our outside game is either A. not clicking or B. our opponent is capable of denying us our outside shots. Also, in the defensive end it seems logical to have a big capable of standing up to bigs that are dominating inside (i.e. Mercyhurst, Ship, etc). As I said, regular season, it's not often a concern...but as WLU progresses further in the NCAA tourney, the prospect of facing a big that is capable of defeating what we throw at him become greater and greater.

Worth noting, Winston Salem (our first opponent) has 6'9", 250 pound Rasheen Merlin, 6'8", 240 Cyille Diop and 6'7", 205 Shamon Jackson to throw at our collections of bigs...Next night we face an ESU team that could throw 6'10", 240 pound Ryan Smith, 6'8", 240 Zach Sabol and 6'6", 255 Cam Byers at us. WLU will defend these players with 6'7", 195 Elija Watson, 6'6", 205 Ben Sarson and 6'5", 205 Marlon Moore. Height and weight do not make a good player and these guys may be nothing more but given our size disparity, we better hope we hit the ground running and shoot at least .450+ from 3 in both games.

The best player you mentioned was ryan smith. Tragically, he lost his valiant battle with cancer and passed away. So sad.

[boatcapt]

Fortunately, it is still a team game. Every style has strengths and vulnerabilities.
Ugbede averaged 12 points a game. Iup averaged 1.13 ppp during that season. Outstanding for team with inside game, but below 1.25 range of nwmsu and wlu over multiple years. In a given game, any player can put up big numbers, like Ernst of Malone in regional, with Tradition post moves, great mobility and over 30 points.
but Malone faded in second half, despite atypical wlu brain cramps in the waning moments..
I agree with iupbig. 6-9 and 220 can be a very mobile player.

Every style does have vulnerabilities. IMHO, truly elite teams antisipate this and have a plan to react on those rare nights when either their primary style is just not clicking or the other team has their number and is capable of shutting them down. Play harder and do better doesn't seem like much of a strategy.

[boatcapt]

6'8" and 220 is much different than 6'8" and 270.

I think Cobo was around 6'9" and 220 lb by his senior year but 220 is pretty thin on a 6'9" frame.

The guys in the Gary Edwards era at IUP were like defensive linemen.

Never seriously ever said I wanted a 6'8", 270 guy just as I never said I wanted WLU to scrap their current style in favor of a low post, back to the basket offense. What I did say is that WLU needs to develop a secondary offense that is more inside focused for those times when our outside game is either A. not clicking or B. our opponent is capable of denying us our outside shots. Also, in the defensive end it seems logical to have a big capable of standing up to bigs that are dominating inside (i.e. Mercyhurst, Ship, etc). As I said, regular season, it's not often a concern...but as WLU progresses further in the NCAA tourney, the prospect of facing a big that is capable of defeating what we throw at him become greater and greater.

Worth noting, Winston Salem (our first opponent) has 6'9", 250 pound Rasheen Merlin, 6'8", 240 Cyille Diop and 6'7", 205 Shamon Jackson to throw at our collections of bigs...Next night we face an ESU team that could throw 6'10", 240 pound Ryan Smith, 6'8", 240 Zach Sabol and 6'6", 255 Cam Byers at us. WLU will defend these players with 6'7", 195 Elija Watson, 6'6", 205 Ben Sarson and 6'5", 205 Marlon Moore. Height and weight do not make a good player and these guys may be nothing more but given our size disparity, we better hope we hit the ground running and shoot at least .450+ from 3 in both games.

[Columbuseer]

Said by a fan of a team with four players 6'8", 220 pounds plus!!

Shocking to point out that a player like IUP's Daddy Ugbede... .700 from the field, over .700 from free throw line and hit the boards like no body's business...but didn't shoot the 3 (0 for 0 in his IUP career!) so WLU would have ZERO interest in even having him on their roster!!

Fortunately, it is still a team game. Every style has strengths and vulnerabilities.
Ugbede averaged 12 points a game. Iup averaged 1.13 ppp during that season. Outstanding for team with inside game, but below 1.25 range of nwmsu and wlu over multiple years. In a given game, any player can put up big numbers, like Ernst of Malone in regional, with Tradition post moves, great mobility and over 30 points.
but Malone faded in second half, despite atypical wlu brain cramps in the waning moments..
I agree with iupbig. 6-9 and 220 can be a very mobile player.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Said by a fan of a team with four players 6'8", 220 pounds plus!!

Shocking to point out that a player like IUP's Daddy Ugbede... .700 from the field, over .700 from free throw line and hit the boards like no body's business...but didn't shoot the 3 (0 for 0 in his IUP career!) so WLU would have ZERO interest in even having him on their roster!!

6'8" and 220 is much different than 6'8" and 270.

I think Cobo was around 6'9" and 220 lb by his senior year but 220 is pretty thin on a 6'9" frame.

The guys in the Gary Edwards era at IUP were like defensive linemen.

[boatcapt]

The game has changed , too. Very few teams (even in the once Center-heavy PSAC West, are carrying 'those' type of bigs.

Slippery Rock and Gannon were kind of the end of the era when JR and KR both got fired.

Charleston has a very good 'old school' center but by and large those 6'9", 270 lb centers of the 90s and 00s are gone.

The best legitimate big in the past decade was probably Dustin Sleva and he was also one of Ship's best outside shooters.

Said by a fan of a team with four players 6'8", 220 pounds plus!!

Shocking to point out that a player like IUP's Daddy Ugbede... .700 from the field, over .700 from free throw line and hit the boards like no body's business...but didn't shoot the 3 (0 for 0 in his IUP career!) so WLU would have ZERO interest in even having him on their roster!!

[boatcapt]

Fyi: Occasionally was not an adjective for fans. It is an adverb that means the topic arises from time to time. Did not want u to think it was a dig on any fan.

I think we just have different opinions on the relative difficulty of learning to playing two styles effectively against the high level competition that one would encounter in the regionals. Adage of "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.

Our style did quite well against teams with all conference traditional post players in the regional, even with a true freshman big. Regardless of style, coaches would give their eye teeth to have the regional seed and occasionally regional championship that you described. We don't need to avoid #1 seed in E8, just NWMSU. Lol

Points per possession determines who wins the game. Wlu style consistently results in high ppp.
I think the current roster may address your concerns about defending taller players with Marlon, Viktor, Elijah and Aiden.

Sorry, I just don't buy that the WLU style precludes any chance of learning/playing a secondary style. As I've said MANY times, I'm not talking about replacing our base style OR bring in a slew of 7 foot neanderthals that clock their movement up and down the court with an hourglass.

I'm a "tool box" guy. I think it is important to have a well rounded set of skills when I approach a particular job. Certainly there are "tools" that I'm better at using, but if I'm not willing to use the other tools I have in my tool box if my favorite tool doesn't work, there are going to be times when I fail. Do I spend a lot of time learning how to use these tools? Not really...but I do spend enough time to develop a basic compatancy in their use. WLU seems to have one tool in it's tool box and seems unwilling to even entertain putting another tool in the box. We have 15 hammers in our toolbox and spend 20 hours a week practicing the use of these hammers...Don't think it would adversely effect our ability to use hammers if we put a saw in the tool box and spent an hour a week figuring out how to use it.

[Columbuseer]

The game has changed , too. Very few teams (even in the once Center-heavy PSAC West, are carrying 'those' type of bigs.

Slippery Rock and Gannon were kind of the end of the era when JR and KR both got fired.

Charleston has a very good 'old school' center but by and large those 6'9", 270 lb centers of the 90s and 00s are gone.

The best legitimate big in the past decade was probably Dustin Sleva and he was also one of Ship's best outside shooters.

Some great points. Sleva - what an elite player! BTW he was playing for team D2 in the TBT. They beat a uva team and nearly beat best virginia. Made up of many former Lincoln Memorial and Queens nc players

[IUPbigINDIANS]

The game has changed , too. Very few teams (even in the once Center-heavy PSAC West, are carrying 'those' type of bigs.

Slippery Rock and Gannon were kind of the end of the era when JR and KR both got fired.

Charleston has a very good 'old school' center but by and large those 6'9", 270 lb centers of the 90s and 00s are gone.

The best legitimate big in the past decade was probably Dustin Sleva and he was also one of Ship's best outside shooters.

[Columbuseer]

The implication is that the "occasional fans" of which I count myself want WLU to play a center (actually a power forward) centric offense IN PLACE OF WLU's current style. I think I've been pretty clear that that is NOT want I want. What I am and always have advocated is to have a secondary offensive style...somthing sufficiently different that it forces our opponent to prepare differently and change what they are doing in a game. There is also a LOT of distance between a "back to the basket" only center and what WLU currently considers a big (basically, a shooting guard who just happens to be taller). WLU has many, MANY shooters and Ben can mix and match them in almost limitless combinations. Hard to believe that a coach like him would be unwilling to give up even one of his 15 Knights for just one Rook.

But clearly that is never going to happen. We will continue to put all our eggs in one style and player type basket...rumble through most conference regular seasons and MEC tourneys at or near the top. Be the 2 or 3 SR1 seed and occasionally compete for the #1 seed...win the SR1 Championship every few years and hope to avoid the #1 seed in the E8 game. Hope every year that our players get on a "don't miss" hot streak at the right time and that can carry us to a NC.

Fyi: Occasionally was not an adjective for fans. It is an adverb that means the topic arises from time to time. Did not want u to think it was a dig on any fan.

I think we just have different opinions on the relative difficulty of learning to playing two styles effectively against the high level competition that one would encounter in the regionals. Adage of "Jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind.

Our style did quite well against teams with all conference traditional post players in the regional, even with a true freshman big. Regardless of style, coaches would give their eye teeth to have the regional seed and occasionally regional championship that you described. We don't need to avoid #1 seed in E8, just NWMSU. Lol

Points per possession determines who wins the game. Wlu style consistently results in high ppp.
I think the current roster may address your concerns about defending taller players with Marlon, Viktor, Elijah and Aiden.