Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

[GrifFan]

I think "heavy" favorite is too much love. I would feel more comfortable if we had Kurth playing and were operating with our normal 8 man rotation. We seemed to be on a roll and had our substitution pattern down. He's been out 5 games now, so we may be getting used to not having him. But I still hope he can make it back for regionals and provide 8-12 minutes at a minimum. We shall see.

[MrAugustana]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

True. Especially avoid the nachos.

No offense, Gorilla John, but this did make me laugh. :)

[NWHoops]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

Now back to "easy" versus "hard." I could counter and say it's "easier" to produce a winner at basketball because the rosters are small and the budgets are smaller than football. Even just one player makes such a huge difference (Pitts for example) that landing the right guy makes a team a title contender. Counter that with football, where you need at least 50 good contributors to field a championship and it appears to me that basketball is much easier to luck into a championship than football.

That's kind of the point. There are a lot of teams that can "luck" into a championship in basketball. There aren't a lot of teams lucking into football championships.

There's a smaller pool of teams in football that have a realistic chance to win a natty in football so it's hard to get in that group but there are fewer teams that have a realistic chance to knock off those championship programs.

Basketball is the opposite. Because you only need a couple good players to be a solid team, there are far more teams who have the ability to knock off the favorite on any given night.

Without any research into it at all, I bet if you look at national champs the last 10-15 years in both sports you'll see a wider variety of champs in basketball. I just think we have different viewpoints. In your mind that proves it's easier to win in basketball. I think it shows how difficult it is even if you're the favorite because the chances of being upset are higher.

[vikingfaithful]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

That's kind of the point. There are a lot of teams that can "luck" into a championship in basketball. There aren't a lot of teams lucking into football championships.

There's a smaller pool of teams in football that have a realistic chance to win a natty in football so it's hard to get in that group but there are fewer teams that have a realistic chance to knock off those championship programs.

Basketball is the opposite. Because you only need a couple good players to be a solid team, there are far more teams who have the ability to knock off the favorite on any given night.

Without any research into it at all, I bet if you look at national champs the last 10-15 years in both sports you'll see a wider variety of champs in basketball. I just think we have different viewpoints. In your mind that proves it's easier to win in basketball. I think it shows how difficult it is even if you're the favorite because the chances of being upset are higher.

It takes more then luck to win a BB Championship and you need more then a couple of good guys to get it done. Great coaches that can recruit a deep bench in an era where most players want to play immediately is what it takes. Recruiting in BB is more competitive as there is fewer players available than football and BB players get in the spotlight more with summer leagues. I would agree that there is a smaller pool of FB teams for FB NC material. Once you get into that small pool teams tend to stay there, most all have larger budgets to work with and attract more talent. There is no "lucking" into BB National Championships and in conferences you generally see the same teams at the top, just as in football.

[NWHoops]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

It takes more then luck to win a BB Championship and you need more then a couple of good guys to get it done. Great coaches that can recruit a deep bench in an era where most players want to play immediately is what it takes. Recruiting in BB is more competitive as there is fewer players available than football and BB players get in the spotlight more with summer leagues. I would agree that there is a smaller pool of FB teams for FB NC material. Once you get into that small pool teams tend to stay there, most all have larger budgets to work with and attract more talent. There is no "lucking" into BB National Championships and in conferences you generally see the same teams at the top, just as in football.

Yeah, you are correct. I should have framed it more as there is more randomness in basketball. A team probably won't luck into a championship but there is a greater chance a lesser team can pull off an upset of a favorite in one game.

Granted, I view it through a NW lens as that is who I care about winning championships. NW is already in that tier for football so for them to win a championship, in most years there are few teams who will be able to knock them off. So for NW it is more likely they can win a championship. Doesnt mean it is easy, just easier than basketball. Most schools and teams across the country and in the conference cannot compete at that level. I realize NW is spoiled in this way. It is harder to get in that top tier to compete if you're not already in it though.

For basketball, there is a greater chance that a team that is not as talented can pull off that one upset. They probably can't sustain it but I think there is more of an "any given night" in basketball and that makes it tougher in my mind, in a tournament format.

Look at any level, bball is easier to turn around than a football program. That means there are more legitimate teams your school has to compete against each year who have shots of knocking off your team.

I get Brandon's perspective though that because it's harder to build a competitive team in football, that makes it harder to win a championship.

[MrMustang]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

I understand there are differences, but the disparity is overblown. There are 170 football schools but if someone read into your post, they would think only 15 are fully funded. The truth is that a lot are full funded.

I understand it's a lot easier to fund 10 full rides than 36 so you'd think that a greater percentage of basketball playing schools would be fully funded.

I think you'd be surprised to find out that some of the NSIC schools are not fully funded in basketball.

correct. I would say 10-12 of the NSIC schools are now fully funded in hoops. That has really changed in the last 5 years. You can follow Moorhead's ascent correlates to going to be fully funded, for example.

[MrMustang]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

I understand there are differences, but the disparity is overblown. There are 170 football schools but if someone read into your post, they would think only 15 are fully funded. The truth is that a lot are full funded.

I understand it's a lot easier to fund 10 full rides than 36 so you'd think that a greater percentage of basketball playing schools would be fully funded.

I think you'd be surprised to find out that some of the NSIC schools are not fully funded in basketball.

I think the only schools that are not fully funded in hoops are:

Bemidji -- around 8
St. Cloud - around 8
Concordia - around 7-8
SMSU - around 7

I am not sure about Winona but I believe they now are but it would not surprise me if they were around 8 also. When they made their dynasty run they were at less than 8.

[MrMustang]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

I believe the max in the NSIC is 28

corect NSIC max is football is 28 --- less than the NCAA max.

for hoops the NSIC max is 10 - same as NCAA

[MrMustang]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

This shadow boxing over NWMSU ability to win in the NCAA regional is absurd. The last two seasons losses to Moorhead and a 2pt loss to Augustana have made the Bearcats battle tough. When the Vikings lost to NW two seasons ago there whole motivation was to beat everybody and especially NW then move on from the regionals. Augustana did that and won a NC. I have to believe that NW feels this is finally their year with the games in their own house it's going to happen. Also, I hope I speak the words of a idiot and AU pulls a rabbit out of the hat and wins it all again.

agree 100%

the favorite is NW Missouri -- clear cut

in the next tier are :

SMSU
Augie
Moorhead

The others can probably pull an upset, but winning 3 games is very unlikely

[vikesfan]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

Wrong thread.

[Brandon]

Re: Men's Central Region Rankings (3/1)

Yeah, you are correct. I should have framed it more as there is more randomness in basketball. A team probably won't luck into a championship but there is a greater chance a lesser team can pull off an upset of a favorite in one game.

Granted, I view it through a NW lens as that is who I care about winning championships. NW is already in that tier for football so for them to win a championship, in most years there are few teams who will be able to knock them off. So for NW it is more likely they can win a championship. Doesnt mean it is easy, just easier than basketball. Most schools and teams across the country and in the conference cannot compete at that level. I realize NW is spoiled in this way. It is harder to get in that top tier to compete if you're not already in it though.

For basketball, there is a greater chance that a team that is not as talented can pull off that one upset. They probably can't sustain it but I think there is more of an "any given night" in basketball and that makes it tougher in my mind, in a tournament format.

Look at any level, bball is easier to turn around than a football program. That means there are more legitimate teams your school has to compete against each year who have shots of knocking off your team.

I get Brandon's perspective though that because it's harder to build a competitive team in football, that makes it harder to win a championship.

Totally agree about the randomness. There are more instances of a long three to lose a basketball game than a hail mary to lose a football game. The best football team typically wins.

I think we agree reading what you've written today. When I was talking about "hard to," it was more about all the work it takes to raise a football team to the championship level. In my view, all that is harder than in football, where randomness can help propel a team (Barton for instance) to a championship playing against a superior opponent.