G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

[Wabbott9]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

Even with just the D2 schools you notice something quickly. Indiana has 4 schools, Kentucky has 3, Illinois has 4, Wisconsin 1, and Iowa 1. They form a kind of desert. Michigan, Ohio, Missouri, Minnesota, all have far more, and border these states. If you're not on an edge of the desert you're not going to have a good conference choice. Ohio schools can choose between the GLIAC and the GMAC, and not worry about geography too much. Kentucky schools don't have that kind of luxury. Be an outlier of the GMAC or the GLVC? Time to crunch the mileage and see which can minimize the travel budget.

[kwcpantherfan]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

The biggest difference I see between AB and KWC/TNU when it comes to the topic of leaving the conference is what is alluded to in schautza's map and has subsequently been stated in words - AB could leave and have a good option (strictly speaking in relation to geography) in the MEC.

If KWC or TNU leave, where do we go? We're on the edge of every conference - Southern/Southeastern edge of the GLVC, Northern edge of the Gulf South, Western/Southern edge of the G-MAC, extreme Southern/Western edge of the GLIAC, extreme Western edge of the SIAC (not to mention neither TNU or KWC are HBCs so we're not really a good institutional fit either).

So I obviously can't speak for TNU, but from a KWC perspective I'm not sure jumping to another conference would even make that much sense geographically. I mean, the GLVC would be the best if we DID move, but #1 would they take us back, #2 would we even WANT to go back, and #3 they're spread all over the place anyway so other than a handful of schools that are fairly close by we're not really gaining anything with the move anyway.

I stated before the GLIAC schools announced they were moving to the G-MAC that I felt the best option for KWC, should the G-MAC fail to expand (very questionable at that time) KWC should look at the Gulf South Conference. It's got some travel distances, but not horrible, and it might be a welcome change to go South for a change...and I still do feel like that would be a good option for us if we did choose to leave the G-MAC, but I certainly prefer to stay the course and help build this into a premier conference. Adding 2 or 3 schools between us and Cedarville could only solidify that feeling.

[JDonAB92]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

Adding Ohio schools doesn't hurt the WV schools in the grand scheme of things. Travel to eastern Ohio isn't all that much more than going to Shepherd or Concord.

It will work itself out like it is supposed to. It certainly did when these schools joined. If OVU leaves and the G-MAC could convince WV Wesleyan to join, then that would be a nice fit for AB and D&E. They have football. We can still play a lot of OOC close to the school ie Fairmont, Glenville, Charleston and Salem. Little travel costs and missed class time with those trips. AB needs to have footprints beyond the state of WV. The economy of WV and the dwindling population will not get AB a lot of WV students as it used to in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Admin at AB failed to see this in the late 90s and early 2000s. It led to major problems. We are still recovering but much better off from what I hear. I think the G-MAC would do the school better....just need one more school nearby that has football....either Charleston or Wesleyan.

I don't know why I started gabbing on this topic. I do look at Bellarmine differently than Wheeling. Bellarmine would fill a geographical gap. We already have schools near Wheeling. Like I said, it will work itself out. I do think the conference can be more selective now on who it expands with.

[BlueBlood]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

BTW - expansion from this point forward is the first time the conference has had an opportunity to expand in an organized manner - its always been about pure survival until now.

1) The original OH schools were ones that the GLIAC did not want and bound together in an attempt to survive
2) I don't know the full KWC story - but I know you guys wanted/needed to get out.
3) TNU was in a similar situation to the OHs schools.
4) The G-MAC desperately needed more schools, the WV schools desperately needed somewhere to go quickly.
5) The G-MAC desperately needed more schools to be viable (from anywhere in the footprint) and that "more" happened to be Ohio.

[ABjo]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

I would hope that CED and URS would vote with their "Founding Member of G-MAC" hat on instead of their "Ohio" hat.

I remain convinced that there is away to do additions that satisfy the whole.

I would lean toward satisfying KWC over TNU - because of the case I made earlier (that I'm convinced they would greatly prefer to be in a southern conference and are always a flight risk).

I think if you use 3 spots to solidify the west/south, that leaves 1 spot for an additional WV school (not counting the OVU spot that you guys theorize may open at some point). If OVU opens, I'd say that should remain a 4th WV school - if possible. Question - would 4 WV schools be enticing enough for AB and D&E to stay? If you add any more in WV, you are stealing from Peter to pay Paul - greatly limiting what you can do out west to help KWC (and to a lesser extent TNU) out.

If Tiffin (the only OH school that I think should be considered at this point) is really in discussions*, then that only leaves 2 schools to bridge to KWC/TNU. Otherwise, there would be 3 spots.

*There might be a reason there is movement at Tiffin. They can do the same math we are doing. If the G-MAC is going to try to build bridges, they can't take more than one more OH school (and even that is pushing it).

If there was an MEC offer on the table... Unfortunately, probably not. Yes, Shepherd and UVA-Wise are still long trips, but you eliminate those EXTREMELY long trips to KWC, TNU and now Hillsdale. In this day and age, especially for the small private colleges in rural locations, every penny you can save may be the difference between success and your school closing it's doors.

[BlueBlood]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

I have made my case for AB staying in the G-MAC over and over. But I am also a realist. With the Ohio schools and one MI school in the conference, expansion COULD realistically take another Ohio lean. They have the votes to do that.

I would hope that CED and URS would vote with their "Founding Member of G-MAC" hat on instead of their "Ohio" hat.

I remain convinced that there is a way to do additions that satisfy the whole.

I would lean toward satisfying KWC over TNU - because of the case I made earlier (that I'm convinced that TNU would greatly prefer to be in a southern conference and are always a flight risk).

I think if you use 3 spots to solidify the west/south, that leaves 1 spot for an additional WV school (not counting the OVU spot that you guys theorize may open at some point). If OVU opens, I'd say that should remain a 4th WV school - if possible. Question - would 4 WV schools be enticing enough for AB and D&E to stay long term? I hope so. If you add any more than one additional school in WV, you are stealing from Peter to pay Paul - greatly limiting what you can do out west to help KWC (and to a lesser extent TNU) out.

If Tiffin (the only OH school that I think should be considered at this point) is really in discussions*, then that only leaves 2 schools to bridge to KWC/TNU. Otherwise, there would be 3 spots.

*There might be a reason there is movement at Tiffin. They can do the same math we are doing. If the G-MAC is going to try to build bridges, they can't take more than one more OH school (and even that is pushing it).

[schnautza]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

if you did a map of D1 schools in a 100, 200, and 300 mile radius of Evansville you would realize the insanity of USI staying D2 or GLVC longterm. Evansville Theatre Academy will be d3 or NAIA before long. greenbacks are hemorrhaging.

200 miles radius D1- Evansville Theatre, SIU-HoTWod, SIUe, Indiana st, Eastern illinois, Indiana, Illinois St, UofIL, Louisville, Butler, IUPUI, UK, Ball St, NKU, Xaiver, Cincy, SEMO, SLU, Arkansas St, Ut-Martin, Murray, Western Ky, Eastern Kentucky, Morehead, Austin Peay, Vanderbilt, MTSU, Lipscomb, Tenn Tech, Belmont, Tenn St,
vs. D2 - KWC, UIS, Uindy, Bellarmine, Ky state, Travecca, Maryville, Mckendree, UMSL, Lindenwood (st joe- Out of business)

31 to 10

landscape has changed alot just since mid 90's
Siue, NKU, IUPUI, SEMO, UT-Martin were D2 David Lipscomb and Belmont were NAIA and St Joe was alive

Done. Map updated.
Looks like the Ohio Valley Conference is the only conference that would really minimize USI's travel.

[ABjo]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

Yeah, that's what I was thinking you meant. Thinking about AB being in the MEC makes my stomach turn, but money talks.

[JDonAB92]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

I don't think OVU stays. I am dead against adding Wheeling, and I don't care about their religion or quality of school. We would be doing the MEC and Wheeling a big favor by taking them in. MEC wants them either out or to start football. They aren't starting football. This would be another way to play schools in basketball and volleyball that have football and they could keep their way of doing things. Let the MEC deal with them.

[JDonAB92]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

Correct 9...my error.

I think those will be in the G-MAC as I said. It isn't to say AB, D&E and Trevecca won't be. I just think those schools will read the tea leaves and make their decisions based on how the conference expands after that. Let's face it, any school that leaves the MEC, is going to create a void. Two schools leave....and they lose two football playing members and they will swallow all pride and send out an invite to you-know-who. There (MEC) D-III expansion will never happen. Those people don't understand Maryland and Virginia D-III dynamics.

Trevecca will depend on if they have any other schools closer to them (less than 3 hours).

I have made my case for AB staying in the G-MAC over and over. But I am also a realist. With the Ohio schools and one MI school in the conference, expansion COULD realistically take another Ohio lean. They have the votes to do that.

[ABjo]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

It is not what I want. But I try to be realistic.

I believe the G-MAC two to three years from now will have the following programs set in stone:

Hillsdale
Walsh
Malone
Lake Erie
Notre Dame
Ohio Dominican
Cedarville
Ursuline
Urbana
Kentucky Wesleyan
Findlay

That is 11 schools; but only 10 of which fund men's sports. That is 8 football schools.

I think the direction the G-MAC goes after that is up to them. But they are going to have to add more than 8 football games. 7 conference games creates problems finding OOC games. Add two more football schools and that gives you 9 conference football games. You don't want to get stuck scheduling VU-Lynchburgs, Faith This-and-That, and SW Iowa Tabernacle if you are a school that wants to contend for a playoff spot, especially against those Michigan GLIAC schools. I think the G-MAC admin will want to have 12 athletic programs with men's sports or 14 athletic programs with men's sports. It will be an interesting direction.

Why would the G-MAC add another all women's institution? I am sorry, but that would make little sense in terms of travel. You want your mens/womens soccer programs ; mens/womens basketball programs and other possible scenarios......traveling together to cut down on travel costs. Riding together on the same bus...saves money. If you start sending men's teams and then women's teams in different directions, then it costs more $$$. That would also be a scheduling problem.

I count 9 football schools in your list:

Hillsdale
Walsh
Malone
Lake Erie
Notre Dame
Ohio Dominican
Urbana
Kentucky Wesleyan
Findlay

What are you assuming for the current member's that aren't on your list? (AB, D&E, OVU and TNU)

[JDonAB92]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

It is not what I want. But I try to be realistic.

I believe the G-MAC two to three years from now will have the following programs set in stone:

Hillsdale
Walsh
Malone
Lake Erie
Notre Dame
Ohio Dominican
Cedarville
Ursuline
Urbana
Kentucky Wesleyan
Findlay

That is 11 schools; but only 10 of which fund men's sports. That is 8 football schools.

I think the direction the G-MAC goes after that is up to them. But they are going to have to add more than 8 football games. 7 conference games creates problems finding OOC games. Add two more football schools and that gives you 9 conference football games. You don't want to get stuck scheduling VU-Lynchburgs, Faith This-and-That, and SW Iowa Tabernacle if you are a school that wants to contend for a playoff spot, especially against those Michigan GLIAC schools. I think the G-MAC admin will want to have 12 athletic programs with men's sports or 14 athletic programs with men's sports. It will be an interesting direction.

Why would the G-MAC add another all women's institution? I am sorry, but that would make little sense in terms of travel. You want your mens/womens soccer programs ; mens/womens basketball programs and other possible scenarios......traveling together to cut down on travel costs. Riding together on the same bus...saves money. If you start sending men's teams and then women's teams in different directions, then it costs more $$$. That would also be a scheduling problem.

[kwcpantherfan]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

Just did a quick check of the travel times to LMU, the longest for anyone in the conference would be Lake Erie which is between 7.5-8 hours. That's shorter than the trip for KWC to AB. So from a footprint perspective, it may not be "ideal" but definitely not out of the realm of being reasonable. Also, travel time to TNU is only 4 hours and KWC only 5.

I don't know how the travel times would compare to their current conference, though, which I believe is mostly schools in and around the Carolinas.

[kwcpantherfan]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

Someone that I don't think has ever been mentioned is Lincoln Memorial. They're located in Harrogate, TN, which is right around the point where the TN, VA, and KY borders all meet. That may take them out of the range we really want to look at, I guess, though I haven't looked at travel times, but the school is private, between 2000-3000 students including undergrad and grad students, and has a very strong athletic program. They remind me a lot of Bellarmine in many ways, though I think the big difference between them and the rest of the league is I don't see any reference to religious affiliation for the school, so that might be another knock.

[BlueBlood]

Re: G-MAC All-Sports and Conference Business Thread

TNU has been a loyal member. I like the school. I respect their athletic department. But, I always think in the back of my head "they like us, they are putting up with us, but they really want to be in a southern conference". If you listen to their AD and coaches talk (especially baseball/softball/golf), you hear thinly vailed references to it. Its not just a distance thing, it is also a regional thing.

Consider this:



Each region of the US has its own Nazarene college. TNU is the Nazarene school for the southeast region of the US. The whole intent of the school is to educate students from the southeast region. Only KWC is in their region (barely). Based on that map, it looks like Campbellsville and LW would be at the very edge of their region. The school is constantly driving out of their home region (and where their students are from) for games. I think at some point, they almost have to decide that they can't keep doing that.

I think Cedarville likes the big footprint of the conference. Only 34% of CU students are from OH. There is a marketing advantage to having your sports teams "out there". However, TNU plays all of its G-MAC games in an area where they aren't even supposed to be marketing (because its Mount Vernon Nazarene University's turf). That has to suck.

For that reason, I think the G-MAC needs to be very cautious in adding any school solely for TNU's benefit. Any school you add for TNU's benefit has to be one that you would be very happy to have if TNU is gone.