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FCS schools that should probably be in D2

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  • #31
    Many schools lack the resources to play D2. The Oklahoma schools, along with others around the country, are losing the arms race with respect to facilities and lack the financial resources to compete in D2. They are getting further and further behind. Oklahoma's economy has taken a big hit due to low energy prices. Although the economy has gotten better, some say there are signs that the economy is slipping again. Lower tax revenues equal less money for both common ed and higher ed. D3 makes no sense for schools in states such as Oklahoma and Kansas as there aren't many D3 schools in this footprint and the travel costs would eat them up going D3. Former NAIA powerhouses such as Northwestern Oklahoma State University will never make the D2 football playoffs due to the lack of resources. Western New Mexico has no sense being D2 as they also lack the resources. They are on an island by themselves with respect to closeness to other schools. However, there is growth in Arizona with NAIA schools. They will be lucky to win a couple of LSC games per year. I didn't particularly like OPSU's move down to NAIA but we can't compete in D2. It was a very smart move. Our new president has raised significant money that he has put into athletic facility improvements along with other campus improvements. People are excited and attendance at games has increased. Wins will put people in the seats. We are winning and most people don't care that it is NAIA.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by OPSUALUM77&81 View Post

      I've had people get irate when I have made that statement in the past. Usually, it's MIAA, LSC and GAC people.
      Morningside is as pleased as punch that they left the NCC for NAIA. Talking to their fans/coaches they have no desire to replace Augie in the NSIC.

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      • #33
        Very generally speaking, the hierarchy goes like this:

        Power 5 FBS is flagship state universities (non-directional) and flagship mainline Christian schools (Baylor, Wake, Notre Dame, BC, etc.)
        Non Power 5 FBS is second tier, large, directional state universities that are not flagship along with some large religious schools (Liberty, BYU, TCU, SMU, etc.)
        FCS is larger state universities and secondary mainline Christian schools (Abilene Christian, Incarnate Word, Presbyterian, etc.)
        D2 is mostly smaller state universities, with secondary mainline Christian and other private schools
        D3 is mostly small, private schools
        NAIA is a mix of quite small public and private schools

        There are exceptions to any rule. There are quite large state universities in D2 (Grand Valley), and quite small private universities in FBS (Rice).

        With public schools, size tends to dictate the division, though not always. With private schools, most are either D1 or D3. Most fit comfortably in D3 for several reasons:

        1. A number of the privates have a ton of academic panache, and students are very willing to attend there without an athletic scholarship. Many athletically-talented kids choose the private school for the academic prestige and the degree that follows, and while the athletics piece is nice, but it is purely secondary. MIT, Trinity, Amherst, Johns-Hopkins, Emory, etc.

        2. The SAT/ACT entrance exam requirements of many of the privates means most students are getting substantial academic scholarship money anyway. The average college athlete isn't going to sniff the front gate of MIT, and MIT isn't in any mood to bend the rules for someone who can't spell cat. Most P5 schools will substantially compromise their standard admissions standards to get a star athlete on the field.

        The idea that D3 schools are low budget is a false one, too. In fact, some of those schools are among the most flu$h in the nation. MIT has an endowment of over $20 billion. Johns-Hopkins almost $4 billion, Emory $7 billion, Amherst $2 billion, etc. In terms of dollars, a lot of the D3 schools could buy and sell a D1 school without a thought.
        Last edited by Herb Street; 09-02-2019, 05:11 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Herb Street View Post
          Very generally speaking, the hierarchy goes like this:

          Power 5 FBS is flagship state universities (non-directional) and flagship mainline Christian schools (Baylor, Wake, Notre Dame, BC, etc.)
          Non Power 5 FBS is second tier, large, directional state universities that are not flagship along with some large religious schools (Liberty, BYU, TCU, SMU, etc.)
          FCS is larger state universities and secondary mainline Christian schools (Abilene Christian, Incarnate Word, Presbyterian, etc.)
          D2 is mostly smaller state universities, with secondary mainline Christian and other private schools
          D3 is mostly small, private schools
          NAIA is a mix of quite small public and private schools

          There are exceptions to any rule. There are quite large state universities in D2 (Grand Valley), and quite small private universities in FBS (Rice).

          With public schools, size tends to dictate the division, though not always. With private schools, most are either D1 or D3. Most fit comfortably in D3 for several reasons:

          1. A number of the privates have a ton of academic panache, and students are very willing to attend there without an athletic scholarship. Many athletically-talented kids choose the private school for the academic prestige and the degree that follows, and while the athletics piece is nice, but it is purely secondary. MIT, Trinity, Amherst, Johns-Hopkins, Emory, etc.

          2. The SAT/ACT entrance exam requirements of many of the privates means most students are getting substantial academic scholarship money anyway. The average college athlete isn't going to sniff the front gate of MIT, and MIT isn't in any mood to bend the rules for someone who can't spell cat. Most P5 schools will substantially compromise their standard admissions standards to get a star athlete on the field.

          The idea that D3 schools are low budget is a false one, too. In fact, some of those schools are among the most flu$h in the nation. MIT has an endowment of over $20 billion. Johns-Hopkins almost $4 billion, Emory $7 billion, Amherst $2 billion, etc. In terms of dollars, a lot of the D3 schools could buy and sell a D1 school without a thought.
          I don't think the college's size or budget really has that much to do with it. For example, CWU has similar enrollment, endowments and a much better campus than EWU, but EWU has a larger athletics budget and is in FCS.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by IronOre View Post

            I don't think the college's size or budget really has that much to do with it. For example, CWU has similar enrollment, endowments and a much better campus than EWU, but EWU has a larger athletics budget and is in FCS.

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            • #36
              I meant overall school budget/endowment.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Herb Street View Post
                Very generally speaking, the hierarchy goes like this:

                Power 5 FBS is flagship state universities (non-directional) and flagship mainline Christian schools (Baylor, Wake, Notre Dame, BC, etc.)
                Non Power 5 FBS is second tier, large, directional state universities that are not flagship along with some large religious schools (Liberty, BYU, TCU, SMU, etc.)
                FCS is larger state universities and secondary mainline Christian schools (Abilene Christian, Incarnate Word, Presbyterian, etc.)
                D2 is mostly smaller state universities, with secondary mainline Christian and other private schools
                D3 is mostly small, private schools
                NAIA is a mix of quite small public and private schools

                There are exceptions to any rule. There are quite large state universities in D2 (Grand Valley), and quite small private universities in FBS (Rice).
                TCU is actually a member of the Big 12 (though, after watching them struggle to hang 39 on Arkansas-Pine Bluff, even after a second half QB change, that's debatable).

                Also, don't forget about the non-football D1 schools out there (Wichita State, St. John's, Seton Hall, etc.).
                Cal U (Pa.) Class of 2014

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by tsull View Post
                  Chicago State (no football), school is on the verge of closing, yet they hang onto D-1 athletics in the Western Athletic Conference. Surely, there's a nearby D2 conference they could play in. They're 500-person hoop crowds would be no more indifferent to the change.

                  Northern Colorado in the Big Sky, Sac State and their bad football program and 1,200-seat hoops gym, and no attendance in either program.

                  To be honest, about half of the 355 men's D-1 hoop programs should be D2. If you draw 500 or so a game in hoops, you need to quit chasing the Dukes and Kentuckys of the world ... and I don't care about you once catching lightning in a bottle in a post-season tournament and losing by 50 in the first round of the NCAA tourney as a 16 seed. You don't belong.
                  Heck there are D-1 conferences closer than the WAC. Check out that footprint.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by CHIP72 View Post

                    Chicago State has long had one of the worst men's basketball programs in Division I (probably 20-25 years). Chicago has long been a college basketball wasteland, particularly since Ray Meyer retired at DePaul in 1984, but even within the Chicagoland area the Chicago State program is irrelevant (from what I've read) relative to Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola-Chicago, and Illinois-Chicago.

                    If Chicago State does drop out of Division I, they wouldn't be the first Chicago area college/university to do so; Northeastern Illinois dropped all sports in the late 1990s after playing in Division I for 10 years.
                    Sister Jean will cut you.



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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Herb Street View Post
                      Very generally speaking, the hierarchy goes like this:

                      Power 5 FBS is flagship state universities (non-directional) and flagship mainline Christian schools (Baylor, Wake, Notre Dame, BC, etc.)
                      Non Power 5 FBS is second tier, large, directional state universities that are not flagship along with some large religious schools (Liberty, BYU, TCU, SMU, etc.)
                      FCS is larger state universities and secondary mainline Christian schools (Abilene Christian, Incarnate Word, Presbyterian, etc.)
                      D2 is mostly smaller state universities, with secondary mainline Christian and other private schools
                      D3 is mostly small, private schools
                      NAIA is a mix of quite small public and private schools

                      There are exceptions to any rule. There are quite large state universities in D2 (Grand Valley), and quite small private universities in FBS (Rice).

                      With public schools, size tends to dictate the division, though not always. With private schools, most are either D1 or D3. Most fit comfortably in D3 for several reasons:

                      1. A number of the privates have a ton of academic panache, and students are very willing to attend there without an athletic scholarship. Many athletically-talented kids choose the private school for the academic prestige and the degree that follows, and while the athletics piece is nice, but it is purely secondary. MIT, Trinity, Amherst, Johns-Hopkins, Emory, etc.

                      2. The SAT/ACT entrance exam requirements of many of the privates means most students are getting substantial academic scholarship money anyway. The average college athlete isn't going to sniff the front gate of MIT, and MIT isn't in any mood to bend the rules for someone who can't spell cat. Most P5 schools will substantially compromise their standard admissions standards to get a star athlete on the field.

                      The idea that D3 schools are low budget is a false one, too. In fact, some of those schools are among the most flu$h in the nation. MIT has an endowment of over $20 billion. Johns-Hopkins almost $4 billion, Emory $7 billion, Amherst $2 billion, etc. In terms of dollars, a lot of the D3 schools could buy and sell a D1 school without a thought.
                      I think the NCAA should make it about revenue. Its obvious that Group of 5 schools have been fudging attendance numbers for years. Most are also charging crazy student fees to subsidize FBS football (especially coaching salaries). That's not right - because in most cases the students don't care or don't care enough. I worked at a MAC school and on game day the students tailgated outside their houses...before watching the Ohio State game on TV.

                      But I don't trust the NCAA - especially at the D1 level. Everything is hedged on the consolidation of power around the Power Five (and Notre Dame as long as they have that NBC contract).

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Fightingscot82 View Post

                        I think the NCAA should make it about revenue. Its obvious that Group of 5 schools have been fudging attendance numbers for years. Most are also charging crazy student fees to subsidize FBS football (especially coaching salaries). That's not right - because in most cases the students don't care or don't care enough. I worked at a MAC school and on game day the students tailgated outside their houses...before watching the Ohio State game on TV.

                        But I don't trust the NCAA - especially at the D1 level. Everything is hedged on the consolidation of power around the Power Five (and Notre Dame as long as they have that NBC contract).
                        Power 5+ND is essentially AAA ball for the NFL. It is pro sports - the compensation is classified as a scholarship. Everyone below that that offers scholarship athletics is heavily subsidizing athletic programs with student taxes. Most students don't care about the sports. I've gone to a few D2 and even lower D1 basketball games here in Arkansas and you're lucky if there's a couple dozen students. The attendees are mostly parents, friends of parents, and retirees who get in for like 5 bucks.

                        College sports is an interesting phenomenon - the people bankrolling the deal don't even watch, while the few people attending and enjoying aren't paying enough for the electricity. What other business concept in the U.S. has such an arrangement?

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Herb Street View Post


                          College sports is an interesting phenomenon - the people bankrolling the deal don't even watch, while the few people attending and enjoying aren't paying enough for the electricity. What other business concept in the U.S. has such an arrangement?
                          Yet, I've never seen a "business" that constantly begs for money, calls, pleads, anything to get a dime out of the customer; not so much at D2, but D-1 it's incredible. I don't think D2 is a business or even close to a money-making model, it's an opportunity for students to play a collegiate sport, and it's a way to engage other students and alums in something fun on campus. Where D2 administrators often miss the mark is emulating the D1 model of expensive facilities, "money games", and adding glitz to their programs. Most of these A.D.'s went to A.D. grad school on Power 5 campuses, and sports administration is taught the D1 model. Just be D2/small college ... and yeah, I get the scholarship game and raising money for that, I'm OK on that, just not the glitz. Know who you are.

                          I also think the moving up to FCS is stupid for almost every school that did it ... does anyone think Central Arkansas will impact D1 athletics in anyway in any sport?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by tsull View Post

                            Yet, I've never seen a "business" that constantly begs for money, calls, pleads, anything to get a dime out of the customer; not so much at D2, but D-1 it's incredible. I don't think D2 is a business or even close to a money-making model, it's an opportunity for students to play a collegiate sport, and it's a way to engage other students and alums in something fun on campus. Where D2 administrators often miss the mark is emulating the D1 model of expensive facilities, "money games", and adding glitz to their programs. Most of these A.D.'s went to A.D. grad school on Power 5 campuses, and sports administration is taught the D1 model. Just be D2/small college ... and yeah, I get the scholarship game and raising money for that, I'm OK on that, just not the glitz. Know who you are.

                            I also think the moving up to FCS is stupid for almost every school that did it ... does anyone think Central Arkansas will impact D1 athletics in anyway in any sport?
                            I'm of the opinion that the NFL should start a minor league system like the MLB and NBA (sort of) has, and ALL college athletics should be funded much more like the D2 level. The NCAA is a monster and needs to be changed.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by laker View Post

                              The Universities of Minnesota, Nebraska and Wisconsin have been accused of the same thing. With good reason I might add.
                              Also, the Univ of Ala-Tuscaloosa and the board of regents control, to a great extent, the athletics at UAB and UAH. They often slip in interim administrations loyal to UAT and wreck havoc with the other schools. See UAH struggling to keep Hockey, and not allowed to add football; and UAB dropping and reading football.
                              Roar Lions, Charge On Chargers, Roll Tide Roll!!!!!

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tsull View Post

                                Yet, I've never seen a "business" that constantly begs for money, calls, pleads, anything to get a dime out of the customer; not so much at D2, but D-1 it's incredible. I don't think D2 is a business or even close to a money-making model, it's an opportunity for students to play a collegiate sport, and it's a way to engage other students and alums in something fun on campus. Where D2 administrators often miss the mark is emulating the D1 model of expensive facilities, "money games", and adding glitz to their programs. Most of these A.D.'s went to A.D. grad school on Power 5 campuses, and sports administration is taught the D1 model. Just be D2/small college ... and yeah, I get the scholarship game and raising money for that, I'm OK on that, just not the glitz. Know who you are.

                                I also think the moving up to FCS is stupid for almost every school that did it ... does anyone think Central Arkansas will impact D1 athletics in anyway in any sport?
                                D2 is taxing students every bit as much as the rest...

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