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  • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

    Again, we agree completely - lots of people on both sides are jumping to conclusions before the details come out. You are also probably right in the sense that the vast majority of shootings are probably justified.

    Even if it's a low percentage of shootings that aren't justified, that still equates to a lot of people - and we can be doing work to make things better.
    If I understand the BLM argument, police are racially profiling and actively targeting blacks and then shooting them with no provocation or legitimate reason. And that these police killings are happening in epidemic numbers across the country.. We have been told that to suggest that it isn't happening or that the numbers don't bear out the wholesale slaughter of blacks at the hands of the police proves you are a racist and you therefore are subject to attack, both on the internet and physically. That to even utter the phrase All Lives Matter again shows you to be a racist and subject to attack.

    As I've said before, the numbers don't support the views of BLM. Yet, they hold America hostage and drive an untrue narrative that does nothing but divide the country.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

      People, at least athletes, social media warriors and a large segment of what passes for the media now days doesn't care about a police officer dying. Heck, I say there is a significant group that thinks any police officer being killed is warranted.

      I wonder how many posters in this little slice of the internet have gone to their Twitter account and said anything in favor of the police??
      A couple months ago - a cop I follow on Instagram made a post talking about how some people have asked if he ever considered quitting to avoid getting lumped in with the "bad cops." He said "Absolutely not."

      I responded and told him that if he quit, there'd be one less good cop in the world - and we needed him for that reason.

      As far as Twitter goes, I haven't said much either way - had a couple conversations about the NBA and the double homicide in Kenosha. I did praise KPD for apprehending the criminal without incident, but I was misinformed as he had made it back to Antioch and was apprehended there. Being that's really a he-said-she-said finger pointing situation, I'm withholding an opinion on the actions of the police department until better information comes out.

      Dangit, I just remembered I'd intended to write a letter to the officer in Sioux Falls who checked in on me one evening and to let him know I'd made it home safely that night and to thank him for his concern. Totally forgot to do that, it was just after I graduated and I was caught up looking for a job. I do think of him every time I look at my SFPD die cast car though.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SW_Mustang View Post

        Absolutely, total agreement there.

        I maintain the position however that most of the rioting is either caused by political radicals or by people just trying to loot and are using the commotion as an excuse to cause damage. Do some of the protesters get mixed up in it? Absolutely - but most of them went home. Many of them gathered past the curfew as an act of civil disobedience. Most of them were zip-tied without any incident. Actually - some footage showed the protestors and the police having jovial conversations. They understood what they did was illegal and they'd be arrested and the police were doing their jobs, the officers understood they were non-violent, compliant, and were upset about societal issues. I suppose if you're gonna break the law, that's the proper way to do it. Nobody got hurt, no damage was caused.

        What the media didn't show, conveniently, was all the protests in outstate Minnesota that were incredibly peaceful. We had one in our town, no violence. Fox News doesn't rake in ad revenue by showing that off, though - they need to divide people and sell their narrative to paint the BLM activists as violent, and neither does CNN for that matter. The only incident I recall off the top of my head outside of the Twin Cities was a small group of kids tried breaking into the Mankato Target. The police quickly apprehended them and they didn't get past the first set of doors. I believe some at the scene were trying to stop them, and some were obviously there to document it.

        The Minneapolis riots were really kicked off when a guy wielding a hammer and umbrella calmly broke the windows of the AutoZone near the precinct. It was caught on film. What was also caught on film were a group of protesters yelling and screaming at him to stop - again, not shown by national media. He was dubbed "Umbrella Man" and after an MPD investigation, was found to be a white supremacist trying to incite violence. He succeeded. I never bought into the conspiracy theory that he was an agent provocateur from the St. Paul PD, turns out he was a right wing radical that got the left wing radicals to tear down the city.
        That sounds like the typical May Day protests/riots in Seattle. Most get permits to block certain streets downtown and are 100% peaceful. When others join them and start violence, the protesters are upset with the rioters and sometimes even alert police to what is going on. I never see that on national news, but do on local news when they actually interview the peaceful protesters.

        I also remember the white policeman in June that joined the protest march over George Floyd, again something that appears to be forgotten when talking about police.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
          By an extreme margin, police don't just kill people for no reason and by a VAST margin,, most police shootings are warranted.. Also 99.99999% of police officers are unbiased and treat the people they protect fairly.

          If a person presents a threat of inflicting severe bodily injury or death on either the officer or a member of society at large, deadly force is authorized. This can and sometime does include those running from the police. Couple of terms used in LE - Means, Motivation and Intent and Totality of the circumstances. Simple scenario to illustrate...officer rolls up un a scene and encounters a verbally agressive large muscular male. Individual is yelling f the police, im goung to kill them all and im going to start with you. Do you shoot or not? Clearly no. He is voicing his intent to kill you but he doesn't have the means (no weapon) and hasn't moved toward you. Now have him say the same things and put a knife in his hand...do u shoot? Still probably not even though he has the means (knife), motivation (highly agitated) and intent (his verbal statments). Depending on his distance from you, you're probably going to use pepper or taze him. Now he starts running at you. Is THIS a shoot situation? Now add some changes...the responding officer is a 110 lb female. Does the shoot/no shoot bar drop? Yes, it does. Same situation but the subject says I'm going in to my house right now and kill my wife and turns and runs toward the front door of a house. Do you shoot or hope he won't cary through? Talk about gambling with someone's life!!!

          Now make that decision at 2 am and in about 2 seconds.
          99.99999 percent of cops are unbiased?

          Thats a crock of ****.

          The vast majority of cops are conservative. So they absolutely have bias which is why they react differently to minorities, , Hispanic immigrants and the LGBT community as opposed to gun toting Cletuses.

          Tamir Rice was a 12 year old playing with a toy gun and the cops slaughtered him. You tell me how that was justified?
          Last edited by IUPNation; 08-28-2020, 05:41 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

            If I understand the BLM argument, police are racially profiling and actively targeting blacks and then shooting them with no provocation or legitimate reason. And that these police killings are happening in epidemic numbers across the country.. We have been told that to suggest that it isn't happening or that the numbers don't bear out the wholesale slaughter of blacks at the hands of the police proves you are a racist and you therefore are subject to attack, both on the internet and physically. That to even utter the phrase All Lives Matter again shows you to be a racist and subject to attack.

            As I've said before, the numbers don't support the views of BLM. Yet, they hold America hostage and drive an untrue narrative that does nothing but divide the country.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post

              That sounds like the typical May Day protests/riots in Seattle. Most get permits to block certain streets downtown and are 100% peaceful. When others join them and start violence, the protesters are upset with the rioters and sometimes even alert police to what is going on. I never see that on national news, but do on local news when they actually interview the peaceful protesters.

              I also remember the white policeman in June that joined the protest march over George Floyd, again something that appears to be forgotten when talking about police.
              Lot of videos coming out during the GF protests showing police and protestors getting along nicely. I believe some of the officers in my town marched with the crowd - as the protest was set up legally, thet were also blocking traffic at intersections.

              Again though, the idea that both sides can actually get along and be civil isn't profitable for the national news outlets to broadcast. I believe I saw one video in Atlanta of a police officer surrounded by a crowd of protesters just chatting with them, and people were shaking his hand and cheering for him as he spoke - and obviously the one where the cop in full riot gear hugs a protester.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post

                If I understand the BLM argument, police are racially profiling and actively targeting blacks and then shooting them with no provocation or legitimate reason. And that these police killings are happening in epidemic numbers across the country.. We have been told that to suggest that it isn't happening or that the numbers don't bear out the wholesale slaughter of blacks at the hands of the police proves you are a racist and you therefore are subject to attack, both on the internet and physically. That to even utter the phrase All Lives Matter again shows you to be a racist and subject to attack.

                As I've said before, the numbers don't support the views of BLM. Yet, they hold America hostage and drive an untrue narrative that does nothing but divide the country.
                I have heard that idea floating around and I do disagree with it. I don't think law enforcement as a whole targets any one race over another. I think, as a whole, they remain largely neutral. I think there are other societal factors that influence more crime in the black community though, and that's where we see the problem. That's just my opinion, I have nothing to back it up with.

                Then again, I grew up in a community that's 87% White, 84% Republican, and have never walked a day in a black person's shoes - which really is the key takeaway here. I don't know what they experience in their interactions.

                Obviously, they are a big nationwide pool of people that make up law enforcement - so some amount are bound to be racist. I don't have any way to estimate that % is. If it's 5%, how do we decrease that number?

                To your comment about BLM - a lot of people feel that the term "All Lives Matter" is used to silence people who feel that black lives aren't getting a fair seat at the table. We can debate whether or not that's true (I happen to believe it is), but that's why people believe what they believe.

                Comment


                • I'm thinking the direction this thread is going it maybe should be moved to the Off Topic forums. It may be best to do that before people get in trouble acting like this thread is in the Off Topic forums on both sides of the argument.

                  Comment



                  • Some people want to caricature cops as all one thing (often male, white, conservative and racists). Makes it easier for them to demonize them. Truth is, they are as diverse as the society as a whole. The one thing that almost every cop believes in is the rule of law. And the vast majority also hate when a fellow cop breaks the law. Makes it that much harder for all the good cops to do their jobs.

                    I always preached to the officers that worked for me that they should never make a decision based on anger because when you are angry, you make mistakes. Of course, sometimes that is easier said than done.

                    I would note that many of these protests and riots are based on an incomplete understanding of what has happened. While videos are good at showing the immediate situation, they are often cropped to show only what people with particular motivations want them to show. And so called eyewitness testimony can be a bit squed at times. I'm reminded of the Furgeson shooting were a number of eyewitnesses said the victim had his hands up and was saying "DONT SHOOT." After all the evidence was recovered, turns out that didn't happen. Also the situation at the Lincoln Memorial were the Kentucky HS student was shown smirking in the face of the Indian chief playing his drum.. When the entire video was finally revealed, the facts were quite a bit different than what the media and certain activist groups first lead us to believe.

                    Weather people want to believe it or not, there are groups that are trying to push a particular agenda. Quite often that agenda runs counter to the facts.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Wildcat Khan View Post
                      I'm thinking the direction this thread is going it maybe should be moved to the Off Topic forums. It may be best to do that before people get in trouble acting like this thread is in the Off Topic forums on both sides of the argument.
                      Exactly!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
                        Some people want to caricature cops as all one thing (often male, white, conservative and racists). Makes it easier for them to demonize them. Truth is, they are as diverse as the society as a whole. The one thing that almost every cop believes in is the rule of law. And the vast majority also hate when a fellow cop breaks the law. Makes it that much harder for all the good cops to do their jobs.

                        I always preached to the officers that worked for me that they should never make a decision based on anger because when you are angry, you make mistakes. Of course, sometimes that is easier said than done.

                        I would note that many of these protests and riots are based on an incomplete understanding of what has happened. While videos are good at showing the immediate situation, they are often cropped to show only what people with particular motivations want them to show. And so called eyewitness testimony can be a bit squed at times. I'm reminded of the Furgeson shooting were a number of eyewitnesses said the victim had his hands up and was saying "DONT SHOOT." After all the evidence was recovered, turns out that didn't happen. Also the situation at the Lincoln Memorial were the Kentucky HS student was shown smirking in the face of the Indian chief playing his drum.. When the entire video was finally revealed, the facts were quite a bit different than what the media and certain activist groups first lead us to believe.

                        Weather people want to believe it or not, there are groups that are trying to push a particular agenda. Quite often that agenda runs counter to the facts.

                        Comment


                        • What is the saying about bad apples? I think most cops are good. They don't consciously discriminate and see their jobs as a public service. But if they stay silent or look the other way, then they are part of the problem.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by njmav1 View Post

                            What is the saying about bad apples? I think most cops are good. They don't consciously discriminate and see their jobs as a public service. But if they stay silent or look the other way, then they are part of the problem.
                            Absolutely.

                            Do I think all cops are bad? No. But the bad ones seem to dictate how law enforcement runs...like politicians.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by boatcapt View Post
                              Some people want to caricature cops as all one thing (often male, white, conservative and racists). Makes it easier for them to demonize them. Truth is, they are as diverse as the society as a whole. The one thing that almost every cop believes in is the rule of law. And the vast majority also hate when a fellow cop breaks the law. Makes it that much harder for all the good cops to do their jobs.

                              I always preached to the officers that worked for me that they should never make a decision based on anger because when you are angry, you make mistakes. Of course, sometimes that is easier said than done.

                              I would note that many of these protests and riots are based on an incomplete understanding of what has happened. While videos are good at showing the immediate situation, they are often cropped to show only what people with particular motivations want them to show. And so called eyewitness testimony can be a bit squed at times. I'm reminded of the Furgeson shooting were a number of eyewitnesses said the victim had his hands up and was saying "DONT SHOOT." After all the evidence was recovered, turns out that didn't happen. Also the situation at the Lincoln Memorial were the Kentucky HS student was shown smirking in the face of the Indian chief playing his drum.. When the entire video was finally revealed, the facts were quite a bit different than what the media and certain activist groups first lead us to believe.

                              Weather people want to believe it or not, there are groups that are trying to push a particular agenda. Quite often that agenda runs counter to the facts.

                              Comment


                              • Bingo. Seems to be no problem lumping all protesters together as thugs, looters, and rioters but get upset when they feel all cops are lumped together. As if the media doesn't selectively cover and portray those events also.

                                Comment

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