The Wacky WAC

[Buffalo/Islander Alum]

I think Jake was suggesting Buffalo/Islander is Pops.

It seems Pops has left us for the time being. Knowing his love for excessive punctuation, I don't believe he is active here, even under another name.

Although I sometimes disagree with Pops, I really like him. I hope he returns closer to football season.

Pretty sure he is saying MooseLodge is ASUPops.

I thought that too but his writing and replying style is a tad different but he also will argue with a brick wall like pops.

ASUPops isnt that bored to create two different handles and debate/argue with himself.

[MooseLodge]

We can argue back and forth, but WT doesn't have the cash to go D1, even low level. If you are arguing that, you haven't researched budgets of successful D1 programs. Private schools are exceptions, because they have the freedom to tax students what the market will bear.

Last I checked WT is sub 7000 undergrad. You don't have enough students to tax. If there was a $100 million athletic endowment raised by friends, alumns, and boosters, you might have the cash. You really need $20 million a year in that space to be anything other than homecoming games for P5s.

But you can't budget based on Joe Sixpack's Smoke Shop throwing in a $ grand a year until he gets pissed off about something. There are actually quite a few unconditional supporters of substance to WT athletics. Fairly Group, First United Bank, Happy State, Pakasak, and some private individuals that have written very large checks that have created endowment streams. Most of the on-again, off-again contributors are small time, but act like they are Boone Pickens.

I so happened to talk to one of the big contributors the other day, asking if they would be weighing in on the AD search. "Certainly not. That's WW's business and we will leave that to him and support whoever he hires."

And a gym wall full of scholarships that were started with a minimum of $10K. That amount will only throw off $500 a year in an actual scholarship, so you need a whole bunch of those to make things happen.

Right now I am concerned that funding cuts from the school, due to lower enrollment, could jeopardize any and all sports outside of football, basketball, softball, and volleyball. Blame whoever you want on enrollment drop, but there's 15% less student athletic dollars than there were a few years ago, and some really tough decisions are going to have to be made. We will be very fortunate to just stay where we are at, at least for now. That's reality. I think we need a two year capital campaign for an athletic endowment, hopefully raise at least $30 million, to shore things up financially. It can be done - the One West campaign is well over $150 million.

[Techster88]

MooseLodge,

Are you ASUPOPS? I can't believe you continued discussing the subject without refuting the comment Jake made?

BTW, if WT continues down the current path as you suggested their athletic model is NOT SUSTAINABLE.

[Techster88]

It's a big gamble right now with enrollments shrinking nationwide, and schools having priced themselves beyond their usefulness.

I agree with what you are saying and student debt forgiveness encourages schools to raise the tuition even higher. Who ever said politicians are economically smart?

Just buying votes as usual.

[MooseLodge]

mooselodge,



btw, if wt continues down the current path as you suggested their athletic model is not sustainable.

exactly.

[MooseLodge]

It's a big gamble right now with enrollments shrinking nationwide, and schools having priced themselves beyond their usefulness.

I think you've it on something. I don't think the major universities are going to have trouble keeping their enrollments up. They have waiting lists and turn away as many as they accept. They have a name brand that parents are willing to pay for.

When you get into the second and third tiers of schools - the directional schools - I think the value proposition is scrutinized much more carefully. Since COVID, these directional schools, like the majors, have been shifting to online degrees. But the directional schools don't have the panache to command a premium for an online education, so there is a whole lot of price shopping with parents.

I don't know firsthand, but I have heard that the WT Business Management degree is now almost completely online. The school is charging full freight for the degree, and nothing is in person. Huge mistake. If I am going to get my degree online, I am going to find the cheapest one I can get - I don't care about any football or track teams. That could be Southern New Hampshire, Upper Iowa, or West Texas, what difference does it make?

I don't have all of the answers on this. Probably not even some of them. But the WTs of the world better be able to demonstrate significant value, or they will keep shrinking. This is happening to schools all over the country. There will be a lot of college closures over the next several years. WT won't be one of them, but I could easily see them drifting back toward 5000 enrollment, unless they get freakishly good at student recruiting.

[gr8ness97]

I think you've it on something. I don't think the major universities are going to have trouble keeping their enrollments up. They have waiting lists and turn away as many as they accept. They have a name brand that parents are willing to pay for.

When you get into the second and third tiers of schools - the directional schools - I think the value proposition is scrutinized much more carefully. Since COVID, these directional schools, like the majors, have been shifting to online degrees. But the directional schools don't have the panache to command a premium for an online education, so there is a whole lot of price shopping with parents.

I don't know firsthand, but I have heard that the WT Business Management degree is now almost completely online. The school is charging full freight for the degree, and nothing is in person. Huge mistake. If I am going to get my degree online, I am going to find the cheapest one I can get - I don't care about any football or track teams. That could be Southern New Hampshire, Upper Iowa, or West Texas, what difference does it make?

I don't have all of the answers on this. Probably not even some of them. But the WTs of the world better be able to demonstrate significant value, or they will keep shrinking. This is happening to schools all over the country. There will be a lot of college closures over the next several years. WT won't be one of them, but I could easily see them drifting back toward 5000 enrollment, unless they get freakishly good at student recruiting.

WT's online graduate programs are rather robust and on the cheaper side, especially if you are in state. It keeps the enrollment numbers up, too, though I dont remember paying for athletics fees or other on campus amenities in my tuition (at least from 2017-19).

TAMU-Commerce's online degree program cost me more to attend than WT, and I thought the program was okay at all. Still, there are some fees that they dont charge online students like in-person students. In either case, those programs really are geared to support athletics.

[Buffalo/Islander Alum]

We can argue back and forth, but WT doesn't have the cash to go D1, even low level. If you are arguing that, you haven't researched budgets of successful D1 programs. Private schools are exceptions, because they have the freedom to tax students what the market will bear.

Last I checked WT is sub 7000 undergrad. You don't have enough students to tax. If there was a $100 million athletic endowment raised by friends, alumns, and boosters, you might have the cash. You really need $20 million a year in that space to be anything other than homecoming games for P5s.

But you can't budget based on Joe Sixpack's Smoke Shop throwing in a $ grand a year until he gets pissed off about something. There are actually quite a few unconditional supporters of substance to WT athletics. Fairly Group, First United Bank, Happy State, Pakasak, and some private individuals that have written very large checks that have created endowment streams. Most of the on-again, off-again contributors are small time, but act like they are Boone Pickens.

I so happened to talk to one of the big contributors the other day, asking if they would be weighing in on the AD search. "Certainly not. That's WW's business and we will leave that to him and support whoever he hires."

And a gym wall full of scholarships that were started with a minimum of $10K. That amount will only throw off $500 a year in an actual scholarship, so you need a whole bunch of those to make things happen.

Right now I am concerned that funding cuts from the school, due to lower enrollment, could jeopardize any and all sports outside of football, basketball, softball, and volleyball. Blame whoever you want on enrollment drop, but there's 15% less student athletic dollars than there were a few years ago, and some really tough decisions are going to have to be made. We will be very fortunate to just stay where we are at, at least for now. That's reality. I think we need a two year capital campaign for an athletic endowment, hopefully raise at least $30 million, to shore things up financially. It can be done - the One West campaign is well over $150 million.

Well we have heard from most of the long time WT posters on this board that have been multi decade supporters.

They do not want D1 which is fine and they want to stay a big fish in a D2 pond which is fine as well.

Now the big question will be if they support WT dropping down to D3 or NAIA and have that same enthusiasm there?

If you think some of the griping about Sul Ross is just the start, I wonder if they will feel the same hanging championship D3 banners in womens basketball travelling to road games in Belton, Seguin, etc.

[CalifOKRA]

Where does Angelo State stand in all this movement?

Also, speaking of online programs, I just graduated from Angelo State's online/hybrid MBA program. They do not charge athletic fees if done fully online. I had the opportunity to take a class on campus; for that course, an athletic fee was charged. Still, I'm glad I got to do a course in-person. I thought the MBA program was well ran and the professors were outstanding, especially the class I took in-person. ASU has a beautiful campus, and their athletic facilities are definitely some of the better facilities in D2.

MooseLodge mentioned schools closing, and he's right. I played at Delta State University and earned my undergraduate there. Since I graduated, back in 2008, the enrollment has declined significantly. This is due in part to bad leadership and poor management, among other things that are out of the school’s control.
The current president is doing what he must do to save the university after years of mismanagement and declining enrollment. Some programs are being cut, while others are consolidating.

Though, I fear this may be the beginning of the end for Delta State. I hope I'm wrong.

Campus Update
https://www.deltastate.edu/PDFFiles/...bility.pdf.pdf

[MooseLodge]

Well we have heard from most of the long time WT posters on this board that have been multi decade supporters.

They do not want D1 which is fine and they want to stay a big fish in a D2 pond which is fine as well.

Now the big question will be if they support WT dropping down to D3 or NAIA and have that same enthusiasm there?

If you think some of the griping about Sul Ross is just the start, I wonder if they will feel the same hanging championship D3 banners in womens basketball travelling to road games in Belton, Seguin, etc.

WT will be at a level that they can afford; they have no other choice. All but a dozen or so athletic departments in the U.S. are under significant financial pressure, due to a quickly-changing landscape. For example, if the Dartmouth ruling continues working its way through the system, we could find that many schools do not sponsor varsity athletics further. WT has something like 500 athletes. There's no way those 500 can be employees of the university.

Currently, we only have 60-70 true D1 programs, with operating budgets of $150-200 million a year. After that, most schools are roughly in the same boat, regardless of how they classify themselves. You see this playing out with the new media contracts and College Football Playoff payouts. With the new CFP contract, the Big 10 and SEC will get $21 million annually. The Big 12 and ACC will get $12 and $13 million respectively. The ENTIRE Group of Five (G5) schools are going to split $1.8 million. That's 65 schools. They will each get $27,000.

So, a Big 10 program will get roughly $1.5 million, a Big 12 school will get roughly $800K, and a G5 school will get $27,000.

Below that top group of 60-70 schools, college sports are going to be an expense, not an income generator, and schools will have to find their way as best as they can.

[Rockofwesties]

WT will be at a level that they can afford; they have no other choice. All but a dozen or so athletic departments in the U.S. are under significant financial pressure, due to a quickly-changing landscape. For example, if the Dartmouth ruling continues working its way through the system, we could find that many schools do not sponsor varsity athletics further. WT has something like 500 athletes. There's no way those 500 can be employees of the university.

Currently, we only have 60-70 true D1 programs, with operating budgets of $150-200 million a year. After that, most schools are roughly in the same boat, regardless of how they classify themselves. You see this playing out with the new media contracts and College Football Playoff payouts. With the new CFP contract, the Big 10 and SEC will get $21 million annually. The Big 12 and ACC will get $12 and $13 million respectively. The ENTIRE Group of Five (G5) schools are going to split $1.8 million. That's 65 schools. They will each get $27,000.

So, a Big 10 program will get roughly $1.5 million, a Big 12 school will get roughly $800K, and a G5 school will get $27,000.

Below that top group of 60-70 schools, college sports are going to be an expense, not an income generator, and schools will have to find their way as best as they can.

Greed has ruined college football. Greed by schools, tv networks and athletics combined. Lack of leadership at the NCAA prevented a solution. Now it’s too late.

[Buffalo/Islander Alum]

Where does Angelo State stand in all this movement?

Also, speaking of online programs, I just graduated from Angelo State's online/hybrid MBA program. They do not charge athletic fees if done fully online. I had the opportunity to take a class on campus; for that course, an athletic fee was charged. Still, I'm glad I got to do a course in-person. I thought the MBA program was well ran and the professors were outstanding, especially the class I took in-person. ASU has a beautiful campus, and their athletic facilities are definitely some of the better facilities in D2.

MooseLodge mentioned schools closing, and he's right. I played at Delta State University and earned my undergraduate there. Since I graduated, back in 2008, the enrollment has declined significantly. This is due in part to bad leadership and poor management, among other things that are out of the school’s control.
The current president is doing what he must do to save the university after years of mismanagement and declining enrollment. Some programs are being cut, while others are consolidating.

Though, I fear this may be the beginning of the end for Delta State. I hope I'm wrong.

Campus Update
https://www.deltastate.edu/PDFFiles/...bility.pdf.pdf

I think AngeloFan would be the closest one on here that could answer for Angelo State.

I think the word was that they were doing a study on what it would take to move up but havent heard anything since.

This may be totally fantasy but with Texas and OU leaving for the SEC, if Texas Tech wanted to be a bigger player in Texas in they could possibly support a move for Angelo State and later Midwestern State since both schools are part of the Texas Tech system.

That could be me just talking out of my arse.

I hate the Delta State news, they had some great football teams in the past.

[AngeloFan]

I think AngeloFan would be the closest one on here that could answer for Angelo State.

I think the word was that they were doing a study on what it would take to move up but havent heard anything since.

This may be totally fantasy but with Texas and OU leaving for the SEC, if Texas Tech wanted to be a bigger player in Texas in they could possibly support a move for Angelo State and later Midwestern State since both schools are part of the Texas Tech system.

That could be me just talking out of my arse.

I hate the Delta State news, they had some great football teams in the past.

Some folks here want to move and some do not. No idea what TT wants.

Where was that on line s*!t when I went through the MBA program at ASU. I had to work 8 hrs, attend two classes and then read few hundred pages of pure BS every day plus write 2/3 reports every week.

[CalifOKRA]

I think AngeloFan would be the closest one on here that could answer for Angelo State.

I think the word was that they were doing a study on what it would take to move up but havent heard anything since.

This may be totally fantasy but with Texas and OU leaving for the SEC, if Texas Tech wanted to be a bigger player in Texas in they could possibly support a move for Angelo State and later Midwestern State since both schools are part of the Texas Tech system.

That could be me just talking out of my arse.

I hate the Delta State news, they had some great football teams in the past.

Speaking of the Texas Tech System, I'm actually surprised the schools in the system don't use Texas Tech's name like the A&M System and UT System.

Texas Tech University - San Angelo (TTUSA) or Texas Tech University - Angelo (TTUA)
Texas Tech University - Midwestern (TTUM)

I actually think it would help TTU and the smaller schools. It would bring brand/national recognition to the small schools and expand TTU's reach in name.

Lastly, with San Angelo's history of agriculture, I'm surprised they didn't seek to join the A&M System.

[MooseLodge]

I think AngeloFan

if Texas Tech wanted to be a bigger player in Texas in they could possibly support a move for Angelo State and later Midwestern State since both schools are part of the Texas Tech system.

I doubt that Texas Tech is concerned about anyone else's athletic program. The only two programs of their own that they are putting real money in are football and men's basketball. Everything else is operating on a "need to" basis financially. Bare minimums. Women's basketball and volleyball are only expected to be moderately competitive for coaches to keep their jobs. They don't get much money. Hence, they can't recruit, hence, they can't be competitive.