VC Transfers

[Chuck Norris]

IUP beat West Liberty in the Atlantic Regional Championship playing a variation of a deliberate style of offense. It was a 35 second shot clock still then, but I recall Joe even talking about it in the paper (not in the post game press conference, because West Liberty posted every one of those to YouTube for the entire Regional EXCEPT the game they lost). When they gained possession, if a shot was there within the first 5-10 seconds of the possession, they took it. If not, they would wait until there were 15 seconds on the shot clock to run their offense. They beat West Liberty by limiting their possessions. The stat line that night was incredible. Both of those teams could not shoot it much better from the floor. IUP just hit the last shot. If IUP played their typical hybrid type style of play, and gotten baited into playing just a little more up-tempo than typical, they don't win that game.

I both agree and disagree with this on all counts. I'm almost contradicting my own point. I recognize that Tony Bennett's recruits know what they are signing up for. But I also recognize that Tony Bennett gets better recruits than 90-95% of college basketball programs on an annual basis and probably doesn't need to play anything close to the brand of basketball he plays.

The Jamie Dixon comparison is very valid. If Scottie Reynolds' runner doesn't fall, Pitt might win the national championship in 2009. Who knows? Dixon achieved high levels of long term and sustained success in Big East regular seasons by playing that style of basketball. Similar to what Tony Bennett has done in the ACC. Prior to UVA winning the championship, they LARGELY underachieved in the NCAA Tournament, just like Dixon and Pitt. And my point holds true.. When you play a defensive minded style in basketball that is solely predicated on you also being deliberate on offense to run time and limit your opponent's possessions, you're also indirectly hurting your own team. By continually running the shot clock on both ends, you limit your possessions too. And when they went cold playing that way, and UMBC couldn't miss, well... Like BigIndians says, Virginia "took the dirt nap." Had Tony Bennett stayed in the locker room, his team probably runs UMBC off the court. Had Tony Bennett stayed in the locker room, the game against Coastal Carolina, another #16 seed, probably doesn't come down to the final 5 minutes. Tony Bennett won the last game of the season, but it was an incredibly lucky and quite miraculous string of events in that tournament that provided them the ladder to cut down the net. And make no mistake about it, you need luck and the stars to align to win the last game at any level. I just hate that style of basketball, with that much talent, at that level of competition.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Off-topic but there are heavy rumors circulating that Virginia State is going to move up and join the MEAC.

Basketball-wise, they are ready (facility-wise). They have an arena on par with the KCAC.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

IUP beat West Liberty in the Atlantic Regional Championship playing a variation of a deliberate style of offense. It was a 35 second shot clock still then, but I recall Joe even talking about it in the paper (not in the post game press conference, because West Liberty posted every one of those to YouTube for the entire Regional EXCEPT the game they lost). When they gained possession, if a shot was there within the first 5-10 seconds of the possession, they took it. If not, they would wait until there were 15 seconds on the shot clock to run their offense. They beat West Liberty by limiting their possessions. The stat line that night was incredible. Both of those teams could not shoot it much better from the floor. IUP just hit the last shot. If IUP played their typical hybrid type style of play, and gotten baited into playing just a little more up-tempo than typical, they don't win that game.

I both agree and disagree with this on all counts. I'm almost contradicting my own point. I recognize that Tony Bennett's recruits know what they are signing up for. But I also recognize that Tony Bennett gets better recruits than 90-95% of college basketball programs on an annual basis and probably doesn't need to play anything close to the brand of basketball he plays.

The Jamie Dixon comparison is very valid. If Scottie Reynolds' runner doesn't fall, Pitt might win the national championship in 2009. Who knows? Dixon achieved high levels of long term and sustained success in Big East regular seasons by playing that style of basketball. Similar to what Tony Bennett has done in the ACC. Prior to UVA winning the championship, they LARGELY underachieved in the NCAA Tournament, just like Dixon and Pitt. And my point holds true.. When you play a defensive minded style in basketball that is solely predicated on you also being deliberate on offense to run time and limit your opponent's possessions, you're also indirectly hurting your own team. By continually running the shot clock on both ends, you limit your possessions too. And when they went cold playing that way, and UMBC couldn't miss, well... Like BigIndians says, Virginia "took the dirt nap." Had Tony Bennett stayed in the locker room, his team probably runs UMBC off the court. Had Tony Bennett stayed in the locker room, the game against Coastal Carolina, another #16 seed, probably doesn't come down to the final 5 minutes. Tony Bennett won the last game of the season, but it was an incredibly lucky and quite miraculous string of events in that tournament that provided them the ladder to cut down the net. And make no mistake about it, you need luck and the stars to align to win the last game at any level. I just hate that style of basketball, with that much talent, at that level of competition.

We saw this year in the D2 tournament. Mercyhurst witch-slapped Fairmont State in Round 1 -- completely shut down that high-scoring offense. The next game they couldn't hit the side of a barn on the offensive end and got embarrassed.

[IUP24]

I agree many styles can work with the right players and a good coach. I understand a deliberate style, such as where they pass the ball around trying to score in the post, even though this offense is not my preference.

What I don't get is teams that don't even start their offense until there are about 15 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Then someone sets a high ball screen for the guy who has been dribbling for 10 seconds, who then drives the lane and shoots or dishes while teammates stand around on the perimeter or inside. It seems like a variation of slowdown 4 corners offense, which forced the introduction of the shot clock. North Carolina was nearly unbeatable playing it, but it caused a fan uproar.

IUP beat West Liberty in the Atlantic Regional Championship playing a variation of a deliberate style of offense. It was a 35 second shot clock still then, but I recall Joe even talking about it in the paper (not in the post game press conference, because West Liberty posted every one of those to YouTube for the entire Regional EXCEPT the game they lost). When they gained possession, if a shot was there within the first 5-10 seconds of the possession, they took it. If not, they would wait until there were 15 seconds on the shot clock to run their offense. They beat West Liberty by limiting their possessions. The stat line that night was incredible. Both of those teams could not shoot it much better from the floor. IUP just hit the last shot. If IUP played their typical hybrid type style of play, and gotten baited into playing just a little more up-tempo than typical, they don't win that game.

I both agree and disagree with this on all counts. I'm almost contradicting my own point. I recognize that Tony Bennett's recruits know what they are signing up for. But I also recognize that Tony Bennett gets better recruits than 90-95% of college basketball programs on an annual basis and probably doesn't need to play anything close to the brand of basketball he plays.

The Jamie Dixon comparison is very valid. If Scottie Reynolds' runner doesn't fall, Pitt might win the national championship in 2009. Who knows? Dixon achieved high levels of long term and sustained success in Big East regular seasons by playing that style of basketball. Similar to what Tony Bennett has done in the ACC. Prior to UVA winning the championship, they LARGELY underachieved in the NCAA Tournament, just like Dixon and Pitt. And my point holds true.. When you play a defensive minded style in basketball that is solely predicated on you also being deliberate on offense to run time and limit your opponent's possessions, you're also indirectly hurting your own team. By continually running the shot clock on both ends, you limit your possessions too. And when they went cold playing that way, and UMBC couldn't miss, well... Like BigIndians says, Virginia "took the dirt nap." Had Tony Bennett stayed in the locker room, his team probably runs UMBC off the court. Had Tony Bennett stayed in the locker room, the game against Coastal Carolina, another #16 seed, probably doesn't come down to the final 5 minutes. Tony Bennett won the last game of the season, but it was an incredibly lucky and quite miraculous string of events in that tournament that provided them the ladder to cut down the net. And make no mistake about it, you need luck and the stars to align to win the last game at any level. I just hate that style of basketball, with that much talent, at that level of competition.

[Columbuseer]

It's what works. Every coach does things that are maddening to fans. Joe Lombardi's dream rotation would be Iron Man basketball and 8 players redshirted. We've ended some painful seasons over as those tendencies.

Look at Pitt. Jamie's Panthers essentially were Virginia (before Virginia). He got run out despite being a constant Top 25 team for a decade and now the program is a dumpster fire.

Those kids know what they sign up for before they go play for Tony Bennett. That's his system. He's the boss. Don't like it ... go somewhere else.

Trust me, if IUP hired Gary Manchel and we had to watch that style of play for a full season I'd probably want to jump off a bridge. But, there's no denying in this era of AAU playground basketball, those teams can just completely shutdown 'prolific' offenses.

What was better than watching a 2014 Gannon vs. Mercyhurst game and the score being 12-11 at halftime?

I agree many styles can work with the right players and a good coach. I understand a deliberate style, such as where they pass the ball around trying to score in the post, even though this offense is not my preference.

What I don't get is teams that don't even start their offense until there are about 15 seconds remaining on the shot clock. Then someone sets a high ball screen for the guy who has been dribbling for 10 seconds, who then drives the lane and shoots or dishes while teammates stand around on the perimeter or inside. It seems like a variation of slowdown 4 corners offense, which forced the introduction of the shot clock. North Carolina was nearly unbeatable playing it, but it caused a fan uproar.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Andrew Mork has left California.

Danny's retention issues are blowing up.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

That was really the sole point of my post. Look, I recognize that you need structure to win consistently. I'm not advocating for never working hard on the defensive end of the court, but enough is enough with how Tony Bennett wants to win. People on this board scream about Mercyhurst and how Gannon used to play under John Reily, but they're now defending Tony Bennett after my post. There's a ton of luck that goes into winning a national championship. You can't take away the trophy, but there were 2-3 games in that run where they were provided a victory from the jaws of defeat. I respect Virginia and Mercyhurst. Great programs, but I just hate the way they play basketball.

He gets great players to go there and play that style, so I suppose that says something. It's just nauseating to watch a team that wants to win every game 60-55. I don't see that as enjoyable basketball to play or watch. West Liberty fans hate the way the PSAC plays, and the PSAC isn't remotely close to the way they played basketball 10 years ago. On the contrary, I think teams winning games in the Mountain East 118-109 is laughable. In my opinion, there's got to be a middle ground somewhere. I love the way that Joe Lombardi coaches IUP. They have really adapted since I started following IUP basketball in 2011. There's multiple ways to be a consistent winner.

When you've won the last game of the season, I suppose that's all the validation that you need. But sports are typically copycat leagues, and typically winning formulas are imitated once proven to work. Wouldn't most people hate if more teams tried to emulate Virginia's style of play on the basis of "they won the last game of the season" by playing it? Is that the college basketball people really want to watch? I doubt it. With the talent and players that Tony Bennett gets, they should be able to open things up a little bit more. He's consistently putting out a roster better than 85-90% of college basketball.

It's what works. Every coach does things that are maddening to fans. Joe Lombardi's dream rotation would be Iron Man basketball and 8 players redshirted. We've ended some painful seasons over as those tendencies.

Look at Pitt. Jamie's Panthers essentially were Virginia (before Virginia). He got run out despite being a constant Top 25 team for a decade and now the program is a dumpster fire.

Those kids know what they sign up for before they go play for Tony Bennett. That's his system. He's the boss. Don't like it ... go somewhere else.

Trust me, if IUP hired Gary Manchel and we had to watch that style of play for a full season I'd probably want to jump off a bridge. But, there's no denying in this era of AAU playground basketball, those teams can just completely shutdown 'prolific' offenses.

What was better than watching a 2014 Gannon vs. Mercyhurst game and the score being 12-11 at halftime?

[IUP24]

I'm a WSU fan and can say that Tony took over a run-down Cougar program. His dad coached it for 3 years, but even he couldn't get the Cougars up and running with 3 straight losing seasons, the last one last in the conference. That said, he did set a foundation for Tony with some good recruits and a system that worked well for tiny/remote Pullman, Washington. He had two 25-win seasons and a Sweet 16 berth, they haven't done that since he left. They were consistently among the leaders in the nation in defense at WSU and now at UVa. It's not a pleasing system to the eyes, it's a grind-it-out/run the shot clock down, play rugged defense. It created a national title.

I'll give the poster one thing: If the lined up and played rat ball vs. UMBC, they run them off the court. Also, Tony left in a hurry out of Pullman, barely acknowledging the fans and the school that gave him his first head coaching job when previously before coming as lead assistant, he was the No. 4 assistant at Wisconsin and couldn't get a MAC interview. Most D-1 rich, fat cats are the most ungrateful people on the planet. Apparently God told him to take the UVa job, according to Tony and his wife. God told me I'm supposed to date a supermodel ... I'm still waiting.

D-1 ball is getting unwatchable, I liked watching players go through their career at a school. Now it's 1-and-done or 3-schools or even 4 schools. Coach K, Izzo, nasty Boeheim, cheatin' Roy, and others, could've changed the whole AAU and transfer culture, but they didn't want to do it because it served THEM.

I hope D2 ball doesn't become D1 ball.

That was really the sole point of my post. Look, I recognize that you need structure to win consistently. I'm not advocating for never working hard on the defensive end of the court, but enough is enough with how Tony Bennett wants to win. People on this board scream about Mercyhurst and how Gannon used to play under John Reily, but they're now defending Tony Bennett after my post. There's a ton of luck that goes into winning a national championship. You can't take away the trophy, but there were 2-3 games in that run where they were provided a victory from the jaws of defeat. I respect Virginia and Mercyhurst. Great programs, but I just hate the way they play basketball.

He gets great players to go there and play that style, so I suppose that says something. It's just nauseating to watch a team that wants to win every game 60-55. I don't see that as enjoyable basketball to play or watch. West Liberty fans hate the way the PSAC plays, and the PSAC isn't remotely close to the way they played basketball 10 years ago. On the contrary, I think teams winning games in the Mountain East 118-109 is laughable. In my opinion, there's got to be a middle ground somewhere. I love the way that Joe Lombardi coaches IUP. They have really adapted since I started following IUP basketball in 2011. There's multiple ways to be a consistent winner.

When you've won the last game of the season, I suppose that's all the validation that you need. But sports are typically copycat leagues, and typically winning formulas are imitated once proven to work. Wouldn't most people hate if more teams tried to emulate Virginia's style of play on the basis of "they won the last game of the season" by playing it? Is that the college basketball people really want to watch? I doubt it. With the talent and players that Tony Bennett gets, they should be able to open things up a little bit more. He's consistently putting out a roster better than 85-90% of college basketball.

[Columbuseer]

There's the next double-edge sword. I don't know how you can play football effectively on Saturday when you're not allowed to play much football during the week. We are sure seeing the results. Tackling is awful. Injuries are way up. It's like boxing without being allowed to spar. I read many articles on this topic last year. Defensive coaches are losing their minds ... saying they can't just expect kids to push a button on Saturday and become violent, technically-sound hitters.

But, hey, they want more offense on Saturday, so perhaps they are on to something.

The players have outgrown the game. The magnitude of the forces involved are damaging. Regardless of the safety equipment, the brain still smashes against the inside of the skull casing on impact (Newton's Lawa of Motion). Might be looking at some sort of flag football in the future.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

You are right about 20- somes having no $... now. Wait 30 years and OSU may care very much. Also, should a major class action CTE lawsuit win, major corporate donors will consider football the 3rd rail and disappear. All of the practice contact limits are a rear guard action to postpone the day of reckoning.

There's the next double-edge sword. I don't know how you can play football effectively on Saturday when you're not allowed to play much football during the week. We are sure seeing the results. Tackling is awful. Injuries are way up. It's like boxing without being allowed to spar. I read many articles on this topic last year. Defensive coaches are losing their minds ... saying they can't just expect kids to push a button on Saturday and become violent, technically-sound hitters.

But, hey, they want more offense on Saturday, so perhaps they are on to something.

[Columbuseer]

Reality is mighty Ohio State could care less about the 20-somes. They don't have any money. They will eventually and that's when they come back around. Columbus is about as insane of a city when it comes to a college football team as you can find. It's right up there with the mighty southern schools. Nick Saban is more powerful in Alabama than Jesus Christ himself.

It's a double-edge sword. The basketball you speak of ... kids find boring. They want the D1/NBA dunk fests, etc.

You are right about 20- somes having no $... now. Wait 30 years and OSU may care very much. Also, should a major class action CTE lawsuit win, major corporate donors will consider football the 3rd rail and disappear. All of the practice contact limits are a rear guard action to postpone the day of reckoning.

[tsull]

It's a double-edge sword. The basketball you speak of ... kids find boring. They want the D1/NBA dunk fests, etc.

Yep, and kids are stupid if they think they're making the NBA unless they are really, really good. I just glanced at last year's NBA draft. The top 10 went like this:
1. Frosh from Georgia
2. Frosh who played 3 games for Memphis
3. LeMelo Ball from Europe or Australia or dad's garage, don't know, didn't play college.
4. Frosh Florida State
5. Frosh Auburn
6. Frosh USC
7. Pro from Germany
8. Soph from Dayton
9. Pro from Israel
10. Soph from Maryland

The rest of the draft is like this. If a kid isn't an NBA prospect by his freshman year of college, he probably won't make the league. They're drafting totally on potential now, not college stats.

Back on my previous post, I find is interesting that most college coaches have no desire to grow their sport. I guess if one gets millions of year, why should they care? They could put on 10 free clinics for kids and not lose a dime from their wealthy bank accounts and inspire kids to play the game, but they don't care. College basketball has dropped in attendance each year the last 5 years, the coaches don't care. As long as they get their paycheck, that's all that matters. Seriously, would Huggins, Boeheim, coach K, Calipari, really care about their sport? I'd argue they don't love basketball, they sort of like it and it's a nice paying job. If it paid $100K they wouldn't be in it. Then they go to the media and wonder why people aren't going to games.

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Great insights. At least among the 20s age group, more and more could care less about ohio state athletics. The money grab extends down to AAU, who are feeding parents and kids delusions of scholarships and pro careers while not developing their fundamentals. Other than Gonzaga, I find d1 difficult to watch. D2 has a far higher % of serious students and the absence of mega $ has shielded it from much of the corruption that is D1.

Reality is mighty Ohio State could care less about the 20-somes. They don't have any money. They will eventually and that's when they come back around. Columbus is about as insane of a city when it comes to a college football team as you can find. It's right up there with the mighty southern schools. Nick Saban is more powerful in Alabama than Jesus Christ himself.

It's a double-edge sword. The basketball you speak of ... kids find boring. They want the D1/NBA dunk fests, etc.

[Columbuseer]

Sports is slowly killing itself. Sportswriters want super leagues but the fans don't, see the European soccer league attempts to make a super league, the fans absolutely did not want it and the owners had to apologize.

I read a great book called "Game On" by an ESPN writer and he did a lot of research and found 70% of kids who participate iniddle school sports quit before they get to high school sports. Why hasn't that raised any red flags?

The one and dones, the three-, four-, and five- school transfer basketball players is really turning off people. I work in a public school in a large suburban city that has a division 2 college, and I live in Boise, idaho. The rabbidness of BSU football has greatly diminished even while they were winning

Hardly any boys in our school are even interested in participating or watching sports. I would say out of 500 kids maybe five like sports. The only kids who go to the local division 2 sports games are kids of parents who work at the university, and the local university is pretty good in D2 Athletics.

Ego msniacs like division one athletic directors, and football and men's basketball coach only see things through their paycheck not the welfare of their own sport. Have you ever seen these multi-zillionaires offer a free clinic for kids? I haven't. I love sports but I'm tired of people killing it just for their own money grabbing greediness.

I hope division 2 stays on its own path of quality college amateur sports

Great insights. At least among the 20s age group, more and more could care less about ohio state athletics. The money grab extends down to AAU, who are feeding parents and kids delusions of scholarships and pro careers while not developing their fundamentals. Other than Gonzaga, I find d1 difficult to watch. D2 has a far higher % of serious students and the absence of mega $ has shielded it from much of the corruption that is D1.

[tsull]

Sports is slowly killing itself. Sportswriters want super leagues but the fans don't, see the European soccer league attempts to make a super league, the fans absolutely did not want it and the owners had to apologize.

I read a great book called "Game On" by an ESPN writer and he did a lot of research and found 70% of kids who participate iniddle school sports quit before they get to high school sports. Why hasn't that raised any red flags?

The one and dones, the three-, four-, and five- school transfer basketball players is really turning off people. I work in a public school in a large suburban city that has a division 2 college, and I live in Boise, idaho. The rabbidness of BSU football has greatly diminished even while they were winning

Hardly any boys in our school are even interested in participating or watching sports. I would say out of 500 kids maybe five like sports. The only kids who go to the local division 2 sports games are kids of parents who work at the university, and the local university is pretty good in D2 Athletics.

Ego msniacs like division one athletic directors, and football and men's basketball coach only see things through their paycheck not the welfare of their own sport. Have you ever seen these multi-zillionaires offer a free clinic for kids? I haven't. I love sports but I'm tired of people killing it just for their own money grabbing greediness.

I hope division 2 stays on its own path of quality college amateur sports