Minnesota State at Slippery Rock

[IUPNation]

Question for IUPNation:

If IUP were to win SR1 next year, ending up with the same record and SOS as Rock this year and draws MNU-M who has the same record and SOS next year as they did this year, would you be upset if the NCAA decided the game should be in Minnesota because "they are a better team?"

Actually IUP's SOS would be off the charts considering the crossovers if those teams all remain very competitive next year....it would also have to be how IUP was winning as well. If IUP was giving up a lot of points and barely winning against anyone, then yes...I'd be saying it was a joke but thank you very much. IUP got the top seed in 2017 because it was the only top seed to make the final four. IUP blew it big time because D2 was in a down year nationally that year but the past two years were much stronger. We really had a legit shot having most of the national powers not having typical years.

SOS by just looking at the numbers on the spreadsheet doesn't really tell the story of how strong that schedulle REALLY was....something that doesn't seem to compute in a certain people's heads.

[msumavfan]

The coaches and D2Football polls should carry some weight in the regional rankings.

Slimey Pebble was not even in the top 5 all year while Minnesota State was...

[msumavfan]

Nation is tip-toeing around the issue, which is that the rankings system does not weigh margin of victory to the level it needs to. When records are hard to compare across regions, margin of victory levels the field. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it adds an element that contextualizes SOS. It would certainly have helped Minny State be ranked above Rock, or at least be more likely to.

[iupgroundhog]

Question for IUPNation:

If IUP were to win SR1 next year, ending up with the same record and SOS as Rock this year and draws MNU-M who has the same record and SOS next year as they did this year, would you be upset if the NCAA decided the game should be in Minnesota because "they are a better team?"

[iupgroundhog]

Why did you imply that someone who has followed the NSIC for years and lives under an hour away from St. Cloud is not informed about their history?

My apologies .In hindsight, I misplaced that post.

In reality I posted it for anyone reading the thread to read.

[IUPNation]

Margin of victory opens up a whole different can of worms. What does a loaded team beating Lock Haven by a score of 125 to 7 prove? It's fun and all for the team still throwing bombs while up 9 TDs. A huge percentage of games in the PSAC are over after one half. Some, before they even kick off to start the game. I'd much rather have my starters pulled and avoid getting injured while you're up big in the third and fourth quarters (not to mention any names Tort and Duane Brown).

The category just gives coaches a reason to beat the living pi$$ out of the weak teams and not feel guilty about it. IUP could have put 100 on Millersville the past two seasons but instead put the brakes on hard in the second half of each game.

You don't have to put up 100 and leave the starters in vs bottom feeders. The real story is how well you do against the better teams on your schedule. Slimey Pebble did not beat one Pee Sack team with a winning record by more than a TD. The top three Pee Sack teams on their schedule, they beat them all by 8 points total. IUP was never ranked high in the polls all season. Kutztown wasn't even on anyone's national radar for half the season and SCI Mon Valley was never on the radar. Sure their Wayne State win looked good since they had an 8-3 record but they got rolled by the only really great team on their schedule in Ferris State. Wayne State lost to Truman State (not known to be a foosball power) who had a 10-2 record, but they lost to Indy who was a playoff team and then Indy then lost to Central Misery of the MIAA in the playoffs. So was that Slimey win over Wayne State that big of a deal? A little but not much. It wasn't as good like IUP's win over Ashland was in 2017 as both teams won their conferences and marched through the playoffs.

I mean there are way to look at a whole body of work to offset what the spreadsheets say.

If they did IUP and SCI Mon Valley would have made the playoffs in 2006 instead of two sad sack three loss NE 10 teams. I had to get that shot in...

[IUPNation]

You're struggling with this whole comprehension thing more than usual. I don't insist that SOS is a determination of the better team; but it's what the NCAA uses.



So your formula is D2football poll plus margin of victory? Doesn't that last part just justify Denny running up the score on Cheyney and Mansfield?

The facts were Slimey Pebble did not crush any of the best Pee Sack teams on their schedule. Not a one. Sure they had IUP down 31-14 after the first half, and had them way down by 31-7 before IUP got a quick score right before the half, but then IUP was within 7 points in the second. A team with national aspirations that has their most hated rival down 31-7 on your own home field, on Homecoming of all games...DOES NOT LET THEM OUTSCORE YOU 28-14 in the second half. You slit their necks and watch them bleed!

You know what game told me all season that IUP was not ready for Prime Time? The 24-13 win over New Haven. Sure, it looked nice the week it happened because we thought New Haven might be somewhat decent...but then as they struggled in the horrible NE10...it told me IUP was a good regional team but had zero chances against the top 5 teams in the country.

Slimey didn't beat any of the good Pee Sack teams on their schedule by big margins. They only beat Edinboro by 11 and gave up 30 points to them and they were not an offensive machine.

What should have told you how good they would against the top 5 was their first game vs Wayne State. They beat Wayne State by 25. Wayne State got clocked by Ferris by 46. Ferris was expected to return to McKinney this year.

But hey....the speadsheets know better!

[IUPbigINDIANS]

Nation is tip-toeing around the issue, which is that the rankings system does not weigh margin of victory to the level it needs to. When records are hard to compare across regions, margin of victory levels the field. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it adds an element that contextualizes SOS. It would certainly have helped Minny State be ranked above Rock, or at least be more likely to.

Margin of victory opens up a whole different can of worms. What does a loaded team beating Lock Haven by a score of 125 to 7 prove? It's fun and all for the team still throwing bombs while up 9 TDs. A huge percentage of games in the PSAC are over after one half. Some, before they even kick off to start the game. I'd much rather have my starters pulled and avoid getting injured while you're up big in the third and fourth quarters (not to mention any names Tort and Duane Brown).

The category just gives coaches a reason to beat the living pi$$ out of the weak teams and not feel guilty about it. IUP could have put 100 on Millersville the past two seasons but instead put the brakes on hard in the second half of each game.

[Brandon]

It would be difficult to do it any other way. In the FBS teams often play intersectional games, and you can get some feel for which of the P5 conferences is having a vintage year and which isn't. Even there, it's difficult. I remember when, I believe it was 2006 or so, Ohio State and Michigan played in the so-called classic 1 vs. 2 game at the end of the year, and then both got pounded in their bowl games. The SEC didn't let them live that one down for years. With more than 160 D2 teams and few intersectional games, it's even harder to rate D2 teams, and you almost have to do regions geographically. Pretty obvious now our region is below par, but, like you, I don't know how else to do it.

Nice rational post.

[Ship69]

It would be difficult to do it any other way. In the FBS teams often play intersectional games, and you can get some feel for which of the P5 conferences is having a vintage year and which isn't. Even there, it's difficult. I remember when, I believe it was 2006 or so, Ohio State and Michigan played in the so-called classic 1 vs. 2 game at the end of the year, and then both got pounded in their bowl games. The SEC didn't let them live that one down for years. With more than 160 D2 teams and few intersectional games, it's even harder to rate D2 teams, and you almost have to do regions geographically. Pretty obvious now our region is below par, but, like you, I don't know how else to do it.

[Horror Child]

You're struggling with this whole comprehension thing more than usual. I don't insist that SOS is a determination of the better team; but it's what the NCAA uses.

Since you are wondering....

- it was NOT the ranking in the coaches polll
- it was NOT the ranking in the D2football poll
- the game was NOT taken from Minnesota State as they never had it in the first place

Going into the final week of the regular season, Rock's weighted OWP was .529 and Minnesota State's was .509.

Since then, Rock beat Kutztown (11-2), Shepherd (10-3) and Notre Dame (12-1), combined 33-6. Minnesota St beat Upper Iowa (2-9), CSU Pueblo (11-2) and Texas A&M Commerce (10-2), combined 23-13

It's pretty clear that Rock would be ahead of Minnesota State based on OWP, which is criteria the NCAA uses when making these decisions.

So your formula is D2football poll plus margin of victory? Doesn't that last part just justify Denny running up the score on Cheyney and Mansfield?

[Brandon]

Yeah, if you prefer to use subjective measures (e.g. your opinion) rather than objective measures (season performance, SOS).

The NCAA considers the regions to be equal on a de jure basis, not unequal on a de facto basis.

I might not be smart enough to understand, but doesn't your second statement cast some doubt on the point of your first statement?

Side note..

I have always had an issue with the idea that the criteria are more valid than a person's opinion and observation. In my view, the data chosen to pick playoff participants and how it is used is almost as subjective as a person's opinion. What's important? How does a win versus Crookston compare to a win versus Cheyney?

[IUPNation]

Yes.

Cal in 2007 was pretty darn good. I don't think the difference is insurmountable at all. To believe that would mean believing that genetics are superior elsewhere.

I think there are different levels of commitment. Once a school, team, and coaching staff commit to and beyond the level at which others are, that school will break through and become the power in SR1.

Well that once was the case. IUP 1982-1994.

Then we know what happened.

I will also say that Danny Hale's 1986 and 1987 West Chester teams were nationally competitive teams. They had two problems. One..there were only 8 playoff teams in those days and two, Frank Cignetti's IUP teams were one step ahead of them. Actually in 1986, neither team made the playoffs because while IUP won the State Game, they had lost to Towson State and they got the bid. IUP never lost to Towson State again...and the never wanted to play IUP again after we kept humiliating them.

[IUPNation]

Nation is tip-toeing around the issue, which is that the rankings system does not weigh margin of victory to the level it needs to. When records are hard to compare across regions, margin of victory levels the field. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it adds an element that contextualizes SOS. It would certainly have helped Minny State be ranked above Rock, or at least be more likely to.

Yes!!! thank you!!

[Brandon]

Read this. Be informed.

https://www.postbulletin.com/sports/...8078bc881.html

Why did you imply that someone who has followed the NSIC for years and lives under an hour away from St. Cloud is not informed about their history?